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-   -   How have original carbines remained so? (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=258133)

TwoGunChuck 01-26-2020 12:24 PM

How have original carbines remained so?
 
Questions for the experts here. Given the all the rebuilding and maintenance and so forth (1) How have some carbines survived as issued, with no discernible replacement of parts or other alterations, and (2) What percentage of carbines in the U.S. are in that state? I guess a followup question would be, how common the various survival scenarios are, as a percentage of total unmolested carbines, but I realize that might be hard to say.

This isn't an idle or trick question, I'm seriously interested in the answers.

Nodakdad 01-26-2020 01:57 PM

I would guess some were gifts to the higher ups, at the company or the military, retirement gifts, or the lunch box builds. Some I'm just sure slipped through the cracks and came home in a parcel post box to home. I would love to know how many rifles actually came home in a duffel bag. The other week seen a post somewhere that a family was cleaning out pops attic after he died and they posted up a picture of a MG42. I would wager many "original" are ones people got from gramps who said"I carrier one just like that in the war." Slowly goes to"this was the actual rifle gramps carried in the war." And the there are just the plain fakes guys make. I am by no means anywhere close to an expert on the carbines, but I know post war safeties, and shadows on barrels from type three bands and a few other obvious signs, I have seen pictures of those posted up as all original rifles.

Milsurp Collector 01-26-2020 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGunChuck (Post 1906015)
Questions for the experts here. Given the all the rebuilding and maintenance and so forth (1) How have some carbines survived as issued, with no discernible replacement of parts or other alterations, and (2) What percentage of carbines in the U.S. are in that state? I guess a followup question would be, how common the various survival scenarios are, as a percentage of total unmolested carbines, but I realize that might be hard to say.

This isn't an idle or trick question, I'm seriously interested in the answers.

(1) If they are late-war production with adjustable rear sight, Type 2 or 3 barrel band, etc. and were in good condition they might not have gone through the rebuild process. They were inspected, stored, and then reissued if needed.

If they were early-war production they might have left US government possession through various means before the post-war rebuilding programs. When disassembled an M1 Carbine can easily fit in a duffel bag. I read in a Carbine Club newsletter I think that a Navy sailor brought a carbine back that was left in a landing craft. Others might have been distributed to allies as military aid and then were imported back into the US before importer markings were required by the Gun Control Act of 1968,

(2) Whatever the percentage is, the percentage of "correct" or allegedly "original" carbines is probably 2 or 3 times higher now than it was 10 years ago due to all the "correcting" and outright counterfeiting that has been going on.

vagrant 01-26-2020 03:27 PM

People erroneously think all Carbines when overseas into battle and are brought back if they're original. A similar thing to consider is how high wood stocks went through rebuild but didn't get cut down and yet sure enough did receive a rebuild stamp. Also, the DCM releases were said to have many with original features.

TwoGunChuck 01-26-2020 06:24 PM

Thanks, seem like reasonable explanations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector (Post 1906048)
...Whatever the percentage is, the percentage of "correct" or allegedly "original" carbines is probably 2 or 3 times higher now than it was 10 years ago due to all the "correcting" and outright counterfeiting that has been going on.

:-) Good one. I remember my father (WWII vet) saying in the 70's that the number of D-Day veterans seemed to be increasing with each passing year. Now it's carbines. (And good point on the guns with late features from the start, and returned shipments to allies.)

Vagrant, hadn't considered half-buttocked rebuilds as an explanation, but that does make some sense. I have an NPM stock with an AAG rebuild mark, but it's still high wood. Odder is the S'G' trigger housing I got on a CMP carbine where it looks like somebody started to drill the oil hole for the mag catch and then gave up after making a dimple, thereby ensuring that it is neither original nor a rebuild. Kind of like being undead. https://www.dropbox.com/s/z0xhdkum51...uHadOneJob.jpg

vagrant 01-26-2020 07:56 PM

Perfect title. :D

skohler 01-27-2020 12:39 PM

Not all arsenal stamped carbines were rebuilt, some were only inspected and not upgraded or rebuild. I would think this would be the minority of examples though, most that went to an arsenal were likely upgraded to some extent.

T38Carbine 01-27-2020 03:40 PM

6.1 million M1 carbines were made during WW2. I would believe most were not in combat and most were in very mundane duties. If only 1% of the above total were “acquired” through various means, that would represent 61,000 carbines. A lot of so called original carbines today are undoubtedly not real. But with such a large number available, a good many probably do exist!!

BryanJ 01-27-2020 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGunChuck (Post 1906015)
Questions for the experts here. Given the all the rebuilding and maintenance and so forth (1) How have some carbines survived as issued, with no discernible replacement of parts or other alterations, and (2) What percentage of carbines in the U.S. are in that state? I guess a followup question would be, how common the various survival scenarios are, as a percentage of total unmolested carbines, but I realize that might be hard to say.

This isn't an idle or trick question, I'm seriously interested in the answers.

This is a good question, which seems to lead to the desirability of the “Bavarian Carbines”. As a group, weren’t these carbines generally thought to be in Germany at the end of the war, given to the Germans for internal security, which means they may have avoided refurbishment? Seems like the Bavarian Carbines might be a group of “survivors” which OP is asking about.

meplat 01-27-2020 05:37 PM

They were molested in other ways

http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/bavborderpolice.jpg

:D


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