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-   -   CMP As-Issued 1911: Barrel Replacement (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=208540)

Archon 04-10-2017 07:03 PM

CMP As-Issued 1911: Barrel Replacement
 
I have an 1943 Remington Rand M1911A1 with a High Standard barrel that shoots pizza pan sized groups at 25 yards. I want to set this barrel and bushing aside and fit replacements.

According to the rules, I can replace the barrel with one of the same length but does not mention quality.

Would installing a "match grade" barrel break the rules for this class?

CDRT 04-10-2017 07:42 PM

Yes, it would be breaking the rules.

7.2.2
The pistol must be in as-issued or "factory stock" condition with standard grips and non-adjustable sights with specialized match conditioning or accurizing features.

Archon 04-10-2017 10:33 PM

7.2.2 also allows for: Rebarrelling with a barrel of the same type and length as the M1911 barrel is permitted.

I put match grade in quotes because not every quality barrel is marked "match".

It would seem that a barrel with the same ramp profile, length, and non-stainless steel construction would be a suitable replacement.

rickgman 04-10-2017 10:34 PM

Archon, I have found WWII era M1911A1's often have excessive barrel OD to bushing ID clearance. A clearance of 0.007" is not uncommon. New production 1911's often have 0.001" to 0.002" clearance. Simply get a new standard barrel and bushing and you will probably be OK. Another option is to measure the OD of your barrel and buy an undersized bushing and have it reamed out to the proper size to fit your barrel. Rick

CDRT 04-11-2017 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickgman (Post 1590797)
Archon, I have found WWII era M1911A1's often have excessive barrel OD to bushing ID clearance. A clearance of 0.007" is not uncommon. New production 1911's often have 0.001" to 0.002" clearance. Simply get a new standard barrel and bushing and you will probably be OK. Another option is to measure the OD of your barrel and buy an undersized bushing and have it reamed out to the proper size to fit your barrel. Rick

I hate to nitpick on this, but having an oversize bushing fitted to the barrel would be "accurizing" under the rules and not allowed. The simple solution is to buy a GI spec barrel and bushing and see if that helps. My out-of-the box, Auto Ordnance keeps them inside the 9 ring at 25 yards, which is good enough for this match.

rickgman 04-11-2017 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDRT (Post 1590866)
I hate to nitpick on this, but having an oversize bushing fitted to the barrel would be "accurizing" under the rules and not allowed. The simple solution is to buy a GI spec barrel and bushing and see if that helps. My out-of-the box, Auto Ordnance keeps them inside the 9 ring at 25 yards, which is good enough for this match.

CDRT, you might be right but I feel that as long as you do not fit the bushing tighter than the minimum production spec, it really isn't technically accurizing. I might be wrong. Either way, buying a GI spec barrel and bushing would probably be the easiest course of action since it can be done without having to rely on any machining. Rick

CDRT 04-11-2017 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickgman (Post 1590872)
CDRT, you might be right but I feel that as long as you do not fit the bushing tighter than the minimum production spec, it really isn't technically accurizing. I might be wrong. Either way, buying a GI spec barrel and bushing would probably be the easiest course of action since it can be done without having to rely on any machining. Rick

The rules call for stock parts; any modifications, such as using an undersized bushing that needs to be fitted by a gunsmith, would be contrary to the rules. Again, we are talking about a match that is shot at 25 yards, not 50 yards like the EIC or NRA matches. A GI spec barrel and bushing should suffice.

Archon 04-11-2017 12:11 PM

Here's where I think the class needs to be split between truly "as-issued" military surplus guns like mine vs new production copies like the Springfield GI. There's no way a surplus "as-issued" gun will be as tight as a recently made commercial copy without replacing parts. Even doing so, there seems to be quite a bit of interpretation of the rules as to what is allowed.

If I had access to a warehouse of parts, I could scrounge around until I found a barrel and bushing that fit my gun tightly and qualify as "as-issued" where fitting new replacements to meet the same tolerances is frowned upon.

cranehunter 04-11-2017 08:12 PM

Acurizing and carefull assembly are synonymous.

bpm32 04-12-2017 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon (Post 1590922)
Here's where I think the class needs to be split between truly "as-issued" military surplus guns like mine vs new production copies like the Springfield GI. There's no way a surplus "as-issued" gun will be as tight as a recently made commercial copy without replacing parts. Even doing so, there seems to be quite a bit of interpretation of the rules as to what is allowed.

If I had access to a warehouse of parts, I could scrounge around until I found a barrel and bushing that fit my gun tightly and qualify as "as-issued" where fitting new replacements to meet the same tolerances is frowned upon.

Yeah, the Bullseye community went through something similar to this when the Distinguished Revolver matches started. Little things like reaming the chambers to equal size, fixing end shake, etc. were thought to be bad form by some. It would be impossible to tell after the fact. Technically, you could get a really well-built revolver out of S&W or a crappy one. If you were stuck with a bad revolver that had issues out of the box, then what? If you bought a used gun, how would you know if it had been lightly accurized?

Rules aside, I would just generally stick to the spirit of honest competition. I personally would not find it objectionable for someone to swap out a bushing on a GI pistol, provided he used a USGI part. Then again, I would also consider a 1911 that couldn't hold the black at 25 yards to be fundamentally broken in some way.

Even with brand new pistols, I've seen a few Springfields that had terrible accuracy, but also some with awesome accuracy (a lot of times locking up on an improperly-fit link).

rickgman 04-12-2017 04:52 PM

Gentlemen, Here's the problem you can get into when you have a loose barrel OD to bushing ID fit - simply changing out the bushing might make little if any difference since the barrel OD might be undersized at least to the extent that will preclude getting an acceptable fit with only a new bushing. If you want to ensure that you get a good fit and still want to stay on the safe side of the rules interpretation, you need to buy both a new mil spec barrel and a new bushing - preferably from the same manufacturer.

GooseHunter 04-12-2018 07:57 PM

MidwayUSA sells Swenson barrels for around 45bucks and bushings for 13.

I have had good luck with them. You may find them better than what you have currently.

Phil McGrath 04-26-2018 12:45 PM

Once again history is repeating itself...... I saw the equipment race when the Garand Games started, nothing has changed I see.


b) The pistol must generally conform to the weight and dimensional specifications of the standard-issue service pistol;
c) Rebarreling with a barrel of the same type and length as the M1911 barrel is permitted;
d) Only government-issue parts or government or commercial parts of the same general weight and dimensions may be used;

There you go now stuff a Kart barrel in it and be done. Just remember too remove the Kart stamp on the barrel hood and have it blued, now it a USGI replacement barrel.

CDRT 04-26-2018 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McGrath (Post 1712230)
Once again history is repeating itself...... I saw the equipment race when the Garand Games started, nothing has changed I see.


b) The pistol must generally conform to the weight and dimensional specifications of the standard-issue service pistol;
c) Rebarreling with a barrel of the same type and length as the M1911 barrel is permitted;
d) Only government-issue parts or government or commercial parts of the same general weight and dimensions may be used;

There you go now stuff a Kart barrel in it and be done. Just remember too remove the Kart stamp on the barrel hood and have it blued, now it a USGI replacement barrel.

I would still go back to the beginning of that section and state that adding a match barrel would not be in accordance with this:

7.2.2 The pistol must be in as-issued or "factory stock" condition with standard grips and non-adjustable sights with specialized match conditioning or accurizing features.

I would consider a match barrel an accurzing feature and as I stated before, we are talking about a match shot at 25 yards, so do we really need to do anything to a stock 1911 or 1911A1?

colemanw 04-26-2018 03:21 PM

I'd recommend finding post war colt contract replacement barrel. Has C in a little box on the barrel foot.

hardball45 05-09-2018 09:47 PM

7.2.2 d says parts of commercial same type sort of. Would KC Crawfords "CMP" hammer/sear set be same enough?

d. Only government-issue parts or government or commercial parts of the same general weight and dimensions may be used;

Louisxllx 05-18-2018 05:47 PM

"...general weight and dimensions..."

AND, for Infantry Trophy Rifle, the team "...may start the the match with a total of 384 rounds..."

"may" is a mistake. Must, or no more than, is what they mean.

Phil McGrath 05-24-2018 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDRT (Post 1712253)
I would still go back to the beginning of that section and state that adding a match barrel would not be in accordance with this:

7.2.2 The pistol must be in as-issued or "factory stock" condition with standard grips and non-adjustable sights with specialized match conditioning or accurizing features.

I would consider a match barrel an accurzing feature and as I stated before, we are talking about a match shot at 25 yards, so do we really need to do anything to a stock 1911 or 1911A1?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McGrath (Post 1712230)
Once again history is repeating itself...... I saw the equipment race when the Garand Games started, nothing has changed I see.


b) The pistol must generally conform to the weight and dimensional specifications of the standard-issue service pistol;
c) Rebarreling with a barrel of the same type and length as the M1911 barrel is permitted;
d) Only government-issue parts or government or commercial parts of the same general weight and dimensions may be used;

There you go now stuff a Kart barrel in it and be done. Just remember too remove the Kart stamp on the barrel hood and have it blued, now it a USGI replacement barrel.

Part B. Really applies too the general overall appearance and weight of the pistol.

See part C, that doesn't stipulate USGI 1911 or 1911a1 parts only. Just same type and length as, is permitted.

Part D, states Commercial parts of the same general weight and dimensions may be used.


No where did I see it specifically address the inside of the barrels bore or type of material, just that it must weight and have the same overall appearance as the USGI part.


Someone, somewhere will use one, and someone else will protest it. I'm no pit lawyer but I think the person that "Win's" and makes the same argument is going too "Win" again, only making for hard feelings from the others.


And it will be so, all over winning a medal.

DaveHH 08-03-2018 02:44 PM

For what its worth:

My F.Bob Chow hardball pistol that is 60+ years old and has had thousands of rounds through it, has a HS barrel with all of Chow's features. It is so tight that it is a chore to take apart. I think that the barrel is one of the least important parts in the accuracy puzzle. The bushing and tightness of the locking lugs seems to be the key.

mkk41 08-12-2018 06:52 AM

As long as a barrel is not marked NM , it should be good to go. Lots of replacement barrels were made by Colt , High Standard and Flannery and are out there.

The Vietnam-era chrome-lined replacement barrels were known to be quite accurate. Made by S&W IIRC.


Something marked NM , or from Bar-Sto , Kart , etc would be a no-no.

bpm32 08-12-2018 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveHH (Post 1741500)
For what its worth:

My F.Bob Chow hardball pistol that is 60+ years old and has had thousands of rounds through it, has a HS barrel with all of Chow's features. It is so tight that it is a chore to take apart. I think that the barrel is one of the least important parts in the accuracy puzzle. The bushing and tightness of the locking lugs seems to be the key.

With an emphasis on the tightness of the locking lugs. The fit of the barrel “feet” against the slide stop pin seems to trump all else. Although I have heard it said by a few Bullseye smiths that there used to be a lot of variation between accuracy of the older barrels. The newer ones by Kart are boringly accurate and there’s little reason to shoot them in a barrel tester anymore.

Ultimately, I think this “As-Issued” game is being overthought, though. It’s all at 25 yards, so guns will hold the 10-ring unless there’s something really wrong with them. If a pistol is so bad it won’t hold 4” at 25 yards, it’s basically broken or worn out.

Pittsspecial 09-02-2019 07:28 AM

Issued a .45
 
Very nice to read all of these articles. When I was a kid in the Army I recall learning to shoot the .45I thought I could throw the gun at the target and get better hits than I was getting. Wow I barely qualified.
Down the road, I was issued a .45 Remington Rand, everything changed for the better. It was amazingly accurate and I loved to shoot her. Fast forward a few light years, I recently purchased a nice Remington Rand here at auction still in the grease. I cant wait to shoot her. I hope she and I can shoot like we use to.


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