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-   -   2019 modern military (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=239559)

Herzo 01-17-2019 03:35 PM

I do not recall any inquiries as to the MM rules at Butner or Perry either. At a minimum they could have published a handout.

jsudduth 01-17-2019 05:51 PM

It can be done. I have a 20” Windham Weaponry upper with pencil barrel, cmmg lower and magpul moe collapsible stock. Weighs in at 7 pounds 5.6 ounces.
Jim

Talyn1 01-17-2019 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsudduth (Post 1793989)
It can be done. I have a 20” Windham Weaponry upper with pencil barrel, cmmg lower and magpul moe collapsible stock. Weighs in at 7 pounds 5.6 ounces.
Jim

Yes you can easily build an AR to meet the 7.5 lb. spec..

But the point is why is CMP excluding the basic, plain-Jane A2 configuration rifle, that has been on the DCM/CMP firing line for decades, by using an arbitrary weight threshold that is within a few oz. of the commercial version of an issue rifle.

There's nothing unlimited about an A2 other than extra few oz. of weight because the govt-profile A2 barrel.

jsudduth 01-17-2019 08:39 PM

From the 2014 Games Rulebook.

5.2.3 U.S. Modern Sporting Rifles, Class A
Category A Modern Sporting Rifles must comply with these additional
requirements:
 Rifles based on the M-16 or AR design and manufactured by a USA
manufacturer must be used.
 Weight may not exceed 7.75 lbs.
 No special accurizing is permitted except that fixed sling swivels
may be attached to the forward end of the handguard.
 The rifle must be chambered for the 5.56x45 mm or .223 Remington
cartridge.

Would that extra 4 oz allowed in 2014 be a better weight limit?

Jim

ceresco 01-17-2019 09:09 PM

I think so. Could be the "7.5" was just a mistake....... Good Shooting. ...

Talyn1 01-17-2019 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsudduth (Post 1794056)
From the 2014 Games Rulebook.

5.2.3 U.S. Modern Sporting Rifles, Class A
Category A Modern Sporting Rifles must comply with these additional
requirements:
 Rifles based on the M-16 or AR design and manufactured by a USA
manufacturer must be used.
 Weight may not exceed 7.75 lbs.
 No special accurizing is permitted except that fixed sling swivels
may be attached to the forward end of the handguard.
 The rifle must be chambered for the 5.56x45 mm or .223 Remington
cartridge.

Would that extra 4 oz allowed in 2014 be a better weight limit?

Jim

Good catch! And yes it would.

Since CMP initiated the MMR category in 2013 does anyone have the 2013 Games Rule book to see if, in fact, the 7.5 lb. threshold is a typo on CMPs part since they claim it's the original 2013 weight rule?

I've been searching for the 2013 Rules on line and can find rules before and after but not the 2013.

Using the 2014 Weight rule would be a simple fix.

jsudduth 01-17-2019 09:57 PM

I have 2013 as well.

4.2.2 Modern Military Rifle
Semi-automatic military-type rifles of U. S. or foreign manufacture that fulfill
these requirements may be fired if a Modern Military Rifle event or category is
included in the match program:
• Must be semi-automatic military or military-type rifles.
• The weight and exterior configuration of these rifles must be the
same as that of the original military rifle.
• Modern sporting rifles manufactured by U. S. manufacturers may be
used in this category providing the rifle does not exceed 8.0 pounds
in weight.
• Trigger pulls may not be less than 3.5 pounds.
• Magazines with a capacity of more than 30 rounds may not be used.
The magazine may not be used to support the rifle in a firing position
by resting on the ground or arm.
• Rifles must generally be standard production or as-issued rifles with
no special accurizing.
• Sights must be military-type sights. Optical sights are permitted only
if the match program specifically permits optical sights.

It seems that the US modern military rifle definition has been a moving target since its inception.

Jim

Talyn1 01-17-2019 10:31 PM

OK. I could not find the 2013 Rules. BUT in looking at the 214 Rule book it says on page i...

2014 Rules Changes. Any substantive changes from rules in the 1st Edition of the CMP Competition Rules for CMP Games Rifle and Pistol Matches or from the 9th Edition of the CMP Rimfire Sporter Rules that are now included in this 2nd Edition of the CMP Competition Rules for CMP Games Rifle and Pistol Matches are underlined so they can be readily identified.Under 5.0 Special Military Rifle Match Rules, Rule 5.0 defines specific rules and procedures that apply to all CMP Special Military Rifle and Pistol events.

The 2014 rules for MMR show underlined changes from 2013 to 2014 as follows.

5.2.2 General Rules for Modern Military Rifles

Semi-automatic military rifles of U. S. or foreign manufacture or commercial rifles of the same type and caliber or commercial variations of military-type rifles may be fired. There are two categories of Modern Military Rifles. The match program must specify whether a Modern Military Rifle event is for Class A and/or Class B rifles or for Classes A and B rifles combined. All Modern Military Rifles must comply with the following general requirements:

The exterior configuration of the rifle must be the similar to that of the original military or military-type rifle.

The trigger pull may not be less than 4.5 lbs. (change from 2013 - increase of trigger pull by 1 b.)

Magazines may have a capacity of no more than 30 rounds and may not be used to support the rifle in a firing position where the magazine rests on the ground or arm.

Rifles must be standard production or as-issued rifles with no special accurizing or match conditioning.

Sights must be military-type, non-optical sights; back-up (BUS) sights may be used; adjustable apertures, interchangeable inserts or lens inserts of any type are prohibited.

Butt-stocks may be fixed or telescoping/collapsing, however, if the rifle has a telescoping/collapsing butt-stock, it must be fixed so that its length of pull is not changed during an entire course of fire.

5.2.3 U.S. Modern Sporting Rifles, Class A

Category A Modern Sporting Rifles must comply with these additional requirements:

Rifles based on the M-16 or AR design and manufactured by a USA manufacturer must be used.

Weight may not exceed 7.75 lbs. (Change from 2013 - minus 0.25 lbs.)

No special accurizing is permitted except that fixed sling swivels may be attached to the forward end of the handguard.

The rifle must be chambered for the 5.56x45 mm or .223 Remington cartridge.

5.2.4 Modern Military Rifles, Class B

Category B Modern Military Rifles must comply with these additional equirements:

Modern Military Rifles manufactured in the U. S. or another country may be used.

The rifle may be chambered for any cartridge not exceeding caliber 8 mm.

Rifle weights may not exceed the weights specified in the chart.

Class B Modern Military Rifle Weight Limits

AK, AK-47 Stamped Receiver 7.0 lbs.

HK-91 11.0 lbs.

AK, AK-47 Milled Receiver 9.5 lbs.

HK-93 8.5 lbs.

SKS 8.5 lbs.

M-14, M1A 9.3 lbs.

FN-FAL 9.75 lbs.

FN-49 9.5 lbs.

SVT 8.75 lbs.

The CMP Competition staff may establish appropriate weight limits for other as-issued or production-type Modern Military Rifles upon request and the presentation of documentation regarding the rifle.

All that being said when CMP states that they're going back to the 2013 weight limit of 7.5 lbs, that's not true since it was 7.75 lbs. since there was NO change in the 2014 Rules from 2013.

Plus they dropped the M14/M1A weight down 0.3 lbs. from, again supposedly to go back to the 2014/2013 weight limit which was really 9.3 lbs.

IMO CMP either has a typo issue in this 2019 section or they forgot what was going on in 2013/2014.

jsudduth has found the evidence needed to ask CMP what they're thinking by stating they're going back to the 2013 regs when they're not.

Personally I like the 2013/2014 rules so CMP should do a double check on what they're saying to correct this 2019 mess.

Thanks to jsudduth for the 2013 info.

Mountain 01-18-2019 11:35 AM

Nice work forum members! Some great rules research here. What a mess!

I sincerely hope that CMP doesn't dig in their heels and go with the MM rules as they are now.

Talyn1 01-18-2019 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain (Post 1794159)
Nice work forum members! Some great rules research here. What a mess!

I sincerely hope that CMP doesn't dig in their heels and go with the MM rules as they are now.

Looks like they are.

http://http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=239779

Mountain 01-18-2019 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talyn1 (Post 1794186)

Perhaps, but I had already seen that which prompted my comment regarding I hope they don't dig in because the rules have been printed and/or published.

So the MM rules have been significantly changed how many times?

2013 published
2014 changed weights etc. only one year after the 2013 publishing
2016 (?) changed weights etc. again and allowed optics
2019 disallowed optics and changed weights again

That catch everything?

Talyn1 01-18-2019 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain (Post 1794210)
Perhaps, but I had already seen that which prompted my comment regarding I hope they don't dig in because the rules have been printed and/or published.

So the MM rules have been significantly changed how many times?

2013 published
2014 changed weights etc. only one year after the 2013 publishing
2016 (?) changed weights etc. again and allowed optics
2019 disallowed optics and changed weights again

That catch everything?

CMP could simply issue an errata sheet for hard copy rule books, and/or send out email/press release to make a correction.

CMP had it right with the 2014 rules IMO. The "inclusivity" verbiage in the new press release is wishy-washy.

I contacted CMP but haven't received a reply.

I haven't looked up the 2015 and 2017 rules, but don't expect any changes compared to the year prior versions.

jsudduth 01-18-2019 03:57 PM

I’ve been looking back at the 2013 games rulebook again. I am a bit confused as it appears that the weight for a modern mil AR is called out in two places and the two sections have different weights.

4.2.2 Modern Military Rifle
Semi-automatic military-type rifles of U. S. or foreign manufacture that fulfill
these requirements may be fired if a Modern Military Rifle event or category is
included in the match program:
• Must be semi-automatic military or military-type rifles.
• The weight and exterior configuration of these rifles must be the
same as that of the original military rifle.
• Modern sporting rifles manufactured by U. S. manufacturers may be
used in this category providing the rifle does not exceed 8.0 pounds
in weight.

• Trigger pulls may not be less than 3.5 pounds.

Same rulebook, different section.

4.3.2 Category A, USA Modern Sporting Rifles
Category A Modern Sporting Rifles must comply with these additional
requirements:
• Rifles based on the M-16 or AR design and manufactured by a USA
manufacturer must be used;
• Weight may not exceed 7.5 pounds;
• No special accurizing is permitted except that fixed sling swivels
may be attached to the forward end of the handguard; and
• The rifle must be chambered for the 5.56x45mm or .223 Remington
cartridge.

I’m not sure which is correct or which was enforced back then.

Talyn1 01-18-2019 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsudduth (Post 1794235)
I’ve been looking back at the 2013 games rulebook again. I am a bit confused as it appears that the weight for a modern mil AR is called out in two places and the two sections have different weights.

4.2.2 Modern Military Rifle
Semi-automatic military-type rifles of U. S. or foreign manufacture that fulfill
these requirements may be fired if a Modern Military Rifle event or category is
included in the match program:
• Must be semi-automatic military or military-type rifles.
• The weight and exterior configuration of these rifles must be the
same as that of the original military rifle.
• Modern sporting rifles manufactured by U. S. manufacturers may be
used in this category providing the rifle does not exceed 8.0 pounds
in weight.

• Trigger pulls may not be less than 3.5 pounds.

Same rulebook, different section.

4.3.2 Category A, USA Modern Sporting Rifles
Category A Modern Sporting Rifles must comply with these additional
requirements:
• Rifles based on the M-16 or AR design and manufactured by a USA
manufacturer must be used;
Weight may not exceed 7.5 pounds;
• No special accurizing is permitted except that fixed sling swivels
may be attached to the forward end of the handguard; and
• The rifle must be chambered for the 5.56x45mm or .223 Remington
cartridge.

I’m not sure which is correct or which was enforced back then.

IMO, CMP is mixing apples and oranges in order to promote inclusivity and participation, while blending in the old 2013 MSR specs into the MMR specs, but missing both targets.

The NSSF states,..."The modern sporting rifle, based on the AR-15 platform, is widely misunderstood. Why? Confusion exists because...these rifles may cosmetically look like military rifles," The term MSR is a counter to the anti-2nd Amendment crowd application of the term "assault-rifle" that in fact only applied to full-auto military rifles.

In the 2013 4.2.2 category clearly states in two parts....

• Must be semi-automatic military or military-type rifles.
• The weight and exterior configuration of these rifles must be the
same as that of the original military rifle.

These two elements point clearly to commercial equivalent ARs that are in a "classic fixed sight" military configuration and weight that correspond with their mil-spec cousins. This covers the commercial equivalents of M4 carbine and M16/M16A1/M16A2 rifle variations.

Then it specifically mentions "separate" MSRs which are derivatives of the M16A4 platform for more hunting/recreational purposes.

• Rifles based on the M-16 or AR design and manufactured by a USA
manufacturer must be used;
Weight may not exceed 7.5 pounds;

We know the M16A4 design introduced the "flat-top" upper that opened the door for optics use, with secondary BUIS sights w/o an optic. Plus the MSR category opened up the accessory world to a plethora of handguards, grips, rails, etc. that made the AR MSR world take-off.

CMP is trying to capture that MSR user world but with limits based on a specified weight and the mandatory use of a BUIS.

In the mean time it's throwing out the traditional classic fixed-sight A2 to the wolves in the unlimited world simply due to an arbitrary weight that was/is intended to limit the bells & whistles on a MSR-oriented AR.

IMO, since the M16A4 variant was/is still in use by the US military it should still be considered a original military rifle, so that the commercial semi-auto equivalent can be used as long as it only has a fixed-sight carry handle on it. Other wise it goes into the unlimited world if a user wants to mount an optic because it can.

Right now the Unlimited MMR category is open-ended enough that an AR service rifle (according to the 4.1 CMP high power rifle rules/4.1.1 M-16/Ar15-type Service Rifle rules) can be used, and well as tricked out MSRs since there is an unlimited weight.

IMO, Class A should be nearly the same as the 2014 MMR rules with some 2019 specs for flavor. Essentially,

Must be semi-automatic military or military-type rifles.

• The weight and configuration of these rifles must be the same or similar as that of the original military rifle
• Rifles must be equipped with issue-type metallic front and rear sights; rear sights with adjustments finer than one minute of angle are permitted.
• Rifles may be fitted with a ribbed or railed handguard.
• Rifles should not not exceed 8.0 pounds in weight. (this would cover the heavier fixed sight carry handle A4s)
• Trigger pulls may not be less than 4.5 pounds.
• Buttstocks may vary vary in length and either be fixed or adjustable. Adjustable length stocks are permitted, but butt stocks that allow for adjustments such as cheek-piece height or butt-plate location may not be used,
• ..the 2019 magazine language.
• The rifle must be chambered in 5.56x45 or .223 Remington.


IMO I would put anything with a free-floated barrel into the unlimited category considering that's a clear accuracy feature vs. dumping the old A2 into the unlimited category simply because it's 4 oz heavier in weight.

My .02

Talyn1 01-18-2019 09:24 PM

Fortunately, since 2016 the NRA Highpower Rule book hasn't had a weight threshold for the U.S. Service Rifle 5.56 mm M-16 series as of the last revision in May 2018.

Hopefully, they won't follow the CMP lead.

GarandThumb21 01-18-2019 10:00 PM

CMP started another thread explaining that the 2019 Modern Military rules were designed, among other things, to squeeze out the M16A2 style rifles, hence the 7.5 lb. weight limit. So much for the theory that the published weight limit may have been a typo.

Talyn1 01-18-2019 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarandThumb21 (Post 1794354)
CMP started another thread explaining that the 2019 Modern Military rules were designed, among other things, to squeeze out the M16A2 style rifles, hence the 7.5 lb. weight limit. So much for the theory that the published weight limit may have been a typo.

Yea I linked to it at the top of this page.

Your reply on that other thread is a good one.

Herzo 01-19-2019 12:20 AM

I also consider the floating barrel to be not in keeping with the spirit of the competition. This is a modification to the AR platform giving it an accuracy advantage over other firearms in the MM class that is not a part of the issued M16 and variants. Being able to control the sling tension is part of shooting this rifle well. That said, in changing over to a GI style FSB, I will take advantage of the floating barrel on my M4gery.

mac1911 01-21-2019 05:49 PM

I say ok to the irons to optics class, after all it was kind of silly you can use a 4x optic against someone with iron sights but a hooded rear aperture with a +.50 corrective insert so I can see my front sight was a DQ?


Now the A2 upper I sought out with the "government profile" barrel a few years back a nogo and they now want pencil barrels. Does it need to be a 1/12 twist and should we be restricted to M193 ammo ?
Strange rules...


Well I think I will just hack of my muzzle device and threads that should get to make weight?


Or maybe a super fat/heavy 14" or less barrel free float and a welded on super light weight flash hider to make it 16"


ugh

Talyn1 01-21-2019 06:51 PM

I got my Windham 20" govt-profile FSB barrel assembly (includes A2 handguards, gas tube, delta ring, spring, etc.) today. All that weighs 3.3 lbs., with everything but the handguard & barrel within plastic bag packaging, on my digital scale.

My complete A2 rear-end assembly (RRA NM fixed-handle A2 upper w/standard BCG, lower with LaRue MBT-2S (4.5 lb.) trigger, & A2 buttstock w/A2 buffer & spring) with KNS no-rotation hammer & trigger pins installed and a LW Battle Arms ambidextrous safety comes to 4.1 lbs.

Unassembled but adding the two comes in at 7.4 lbs., with a ~1.6 oz. leeway to the good. No helium involved.

I'll weigh the whole rifle once assembled when I get my smith to complete the install in a few days. Hopefully he won't use any "really heavy" anti-seize lube on the barrel nut/receiver & FH threads.

Right now it appears it will meet the Class A weight limit, but if I used an A4 upper with detachable carry-handle it would have been over due to the greater weight of the A4 assembly due to the steel attachment bolts and knobs.

GarandThumb21 01-21-2019 08:13 PM

Nice! If I had a Windham A2 upper with the government profile barrel, it sounds like I would've been able to make weight, as my lower is set up pretty similarly to yours. When I purchased my upper, Windham only had the A4 upper in stock, so I purchased one with the carry handle.

I'll double check my rifle's weight on a scale that's a bit more precise than a bathroom scale when I can, but I think I'm going to be a few ounces over.

We'll see if CMP modifies the rule this year to allow for a civilian A2 or A4 that weighs what the corresponding military rifle weighs. If not, it's Unlimited for me, unless CMP changes the rule again in 2020.:)

Hopefully you enjoy the Windham barrel. I've had good luck with it so far.

Talyn1 01-21-2019 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarandThumb21 (Post 1795378)
Nice! If I had a Windham A2 upper with the government profile barrel, it sounds like I would've been able to make weight, as my lower is set up pretty similarly to yours. When I purchased my upper, Windham only had the A4 upper in stock, so I purchased one with the carry handle.

I'll double check my rifle's weight on a scale that's a bit more precise than a bathroom scale when I can, but I think I'm going to be a few ounces over.

We'll see if CMP modifies the rule this year to allow for a civilian A2 or A4 that weighs what the corresponding military rifle weighs. If not, it's Unlimited for me, unless CMP changes the rule again in 2020.:)

Hopefully you enjoy the Windham barrel. I've had good luck with it so far.

I don't know how much heavier a bare A4 upper w/detachable carry handle weighs, maybe someone will chime in with a weight.

But if CMP would just show some flexibility, like going to the 2014 7.75 lbs. weight threshold I would think that 4 more oz. would allow an A4 to meet weight.

While the 2016-2018 NRA Rules are almost identical to CMP verbiage in describing the features a rifle must have in both of their categories, the NRA doesn't specify an arbitrary weight.

Note: What CMP calls a "Service Rifle" is what the NRA calls a "Match" rifle, both being refined rifles vs. a standard issue type. And a CMP standard MMR is a NRA "Service Rifle".

It would be great if both entities would standardize their class titles. IMO the NRA titles are more suited to how the classes are configured.

At least now I can shoot both Classes with this new A2 build for "A" and my Service Rifle (aka NRA Match rifle) for that Class, which I may do both for the fun of it.


BTW - The Windham 20" govt-profile barrel comes with M4 feed ramp cuts.

Mountain 01-22-2019 10:00 AM

My now 'illegal' scoped MM upper has a 20" gov profile Criterion barrel. I don't have an upper with an integral carry handle, so I'll have to figure out a way to make it all work with the extra weight of the detachable carry handle. Yeah, those steel bolts & knobs are heavy- I'll have to replace at least the knobs with some smaller nuts and perhaps the bolts too.

What about butt stocks? CMP allows more or less anything that doesn't have an adjustable cheek height or adjustable butt plate, correct?

I've seen many different variations of non-cheek/butt plate adjustable stocks on the line for MM. That's an area I can save a lot of weight if I move away from the A2 butt stock and use my lightweight one. Actually I prefer the A2 stock but will use an alternate lighter stock if I must. I should have everything I need in parts except a free float hand guard that doesn't weigh a ton. Rules allow it, so I'm going to go there...

mac1911 01-22-2019 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceresco (Post 1791771)
The new class is going to be a basic iron sight rifle or carbine. A quick look has M16 weight at 7.5# and the M4 carbine considerably lighter...... Good Shooting. ..

Which M16 variant
Is this also M16 what USGI was issued and when? vs commercial ones available to joe public.
It’s a mess really and when “mondern military” is based on the original variant issued 50 plus years ago, well its time for a class separation
A1 , A2 , M4 , A3 ?

ceresco 01-22-2019 10:30 AM

A1....does it matter?? Their rule is going to apply to all the ARs. Good Shooting. ....

Mountain 01-22-2019 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceresco (Post 1795517)
A1....does it matter?? Their rule is going to apply to all the ARs. Good Shooting. ....

Yes, it matters. It would define the difference between use of commonly available commercial variants or forcing the majority of competitors to either buy an M4 Carbine type or buy and install lighter components to make the typical commercially available A2 weight compliant.

Who wants to ditch their gov profile A2 barrel and install a pencil barrel because of an arbitrary rules change? Who wants to have to buy a new A1 slick side upper to cut weight? Those of us with aging eyes who went to scopes when they were deemed legal could simply use a detachable carry handle/sight assembly but that adds significant weight.

Seems that the minority of folks who have either M4 carbines or A1 style uppers are perfectly happy with the rules changes and some of them are probably the folks who initiated the complaints that brought us these difficult rules. Maybe CMP should just make it a M4 carbine class only and be done with it.

Talyn1 01-22-2019 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain (Post 1795506)
My now 'illegal' scoped MM upper has a 20" gov profile Criterion barrel. I don't have an upper with an integral carry handle, so I'll have to figure out a way to make it all work with the extra weight of the detachable carry handle. Yeah, those steel bolts & knobs are heavy- I'll have to replace at least the knobs with some smaller nuts and perhaps the bolts too.

What about butt stocks? CMP allows more or less anything that doesn't have an adjustable cheek height or adjustable butt plate, correct?

I've seen many different variations of non-cheek/butt plate adjustable stocks on the line for MM. That's an area I can save a lot of weight if I move away from the A2 butt stock and use my lightweight one. Actually I prefer the A2 stock but will use an alternate lighter stock if I must. I should have everything I need in parts except a free float hand guard that doesn't weigh a ton. Rules allow it, so I'm going to go there...

Before you try to save weight with the A4 handle steel attachment parts try a few things if you have the $$.

One gent previously posted that a carbine buffer assembly (stock, buffer tune, buffer & spring) can save 8 oz. Also, if you have some extra $$ you could try a light weight bolt carrier. You could save 4 oz. there over standard carrier. Also, WOA sells a A2 handguard w/o the inner heat shields.

Lastly, if you have the $ you could try some titanium and/or magnesium parts from V Seven. They have a carrier that weighs only 7.9 oz. As well as a variety of parts. But all BIG $$.

Talyn1 01-22-2019 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain (Post 1795525)
Maybe CMP should just make it a M4 carbine class only and be done with it.

I agree with this. Have a standard rifle class and a M4 class.

CMP says they want to be inclusive. Why freeze out the A4 when it's an issue rifle.

ceresco 01-22-2019 11:33 AM

It doesn't matter because the new weight is set at 7.5 lbs for all the ARs. How they picked that number doesn't matter unless you want to argue with them. Build a legal AR and go to the match. Good Shooting. ....

Mountain 01-22-2019 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceresco (Post 1795540)
It doesn't matter because the new weight is set at 7.5 lbs for all the ARs. How they picked that number doesn't matter unless you want to argue with them. Build a legal AR and go to the match. Good Shooting. ....

OK, that I get and I agree. With you, not CMP's new rules. :D

Mountain 01-22-2019 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talyn1 (Post 1795526)
Before you try to save weight with the A4 handle steel attachment parts try a few things if you have the $$.

One gent previously posted that a carbine buffer assembly (stock, buffer tune, buffer & spring) can save 8 oz. Also, if you have some extra $$ you could try a light weight bolt carrier. You could save 4 oz. there over standard carrier. Also, WOA sells a A2 handguard w/o the inner heat shields.

Lastly, if you have the $ you could try some titanium and/or magnesium parts from V Seven. They have a carrier that weighs only 7.9 oz. As well as a variety of parts. But all BIG $$.

I have a lightweight butt stock that is carbine size. Not an A4 version but I've seen many different types on the line at CMP events. No adjustable cheek nor butt plate, so should be GTG per their rules. Maybe my current delta ring upper with the A4 handle and the lower built with this stock will make weight. No money spent- I have all the parts. However, since the rules now allow free float I plan to take advantage of that.

Jeremy2171 01-22-2019 06:17 PM

Time to break out a poly lower...

rickgman 01-22-2019 07:17 PM

My personal feeling is that when a hobby becomes frustrating, it is time to move on. The latest rules changes for this match are frustrating. It isn't like there aren't other matches.

Talyn1 01-22-2019 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickgman (Post 1795684)
My personal feeling is that when a hobby becomes frustrating, it is time to move on. The latest rules changes for this match are frustrating. It isn't like there aren't other matches.

So far none of the NRA Rules specify a weight threshold.

rickgman 01-22-2019 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talyn1 (Post 1795688)
So far none of the NRA Rules specify a weight threshold.

However, the NRA does not sponsor Modern Military Matches.

Talyn1 01-22-2019 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickgman (Post 1795700)
However, the NRA does not sponsor Modern Military Matches.

MMR is a CMP label for their type of sanctioned matches. I know this forum is for CMP competitions. But there are other AR-type Service Rifle/other label competitive matches, and many more than those held by CMP. There is no need to give up on the hobby.

If you have any NRA-sponsored High Power matches within your area of access, and check the 2018 NRA High Power Rule book you'll see that their Service Rifle category nearly duplicates the 2018 CMP MMR configuration specs, as they did in prior years, but without any specified weight.

I haven't seen the 2019 NRA High Power Rules yet (May-ish) but if that pattern holds its likely you're good-to-go for a NRA-sanctioned match with a CMP MMR configured AR. You just won't have to deal with the 7.5 lb. threshold, if the NRA continues not to specify a weight limit.

Look in the Coming Events section of Shooting Sports USA (monthly-on-line only) for any scheduled matches within the area you're willing to travel to. https://www.ssusa.org/coming-events/ or in the SSUSA e-magazine. http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201901/

Here's the Jan 2019 schedule. https://www.ssusa.org/media/1539923/jan_2019_ce.pdf Check regularly for updates since its early.

Here's MI contact. MICHIGAN, Utica: 200 YD, May 1-Oct. 31; L. Fey, 21046 Lantz St., Clinton Township, MI 48035; lfrey1816@comcast.net

BTW, an NRA "match" AR has equivalent specs as the CMP " Service Rifle".

https://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/...R/hpr-book.pdf

WindLogik 01-22-2019 10:40 PM

Quick google search shows that the weight of an unloaded M16A1 is 7.5 pounds. I thought the spirit of these games matches was to use issue type rifles? Seems like they're setting the weight limit with a particular design in mind? I don't shoot these matches, but was curious about all of this nonsense. .02$

Rootsy 01-23-2019 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talyn1 (Post 1795726)
MMR is a CMP label for their type of sanctioned matches. I know this forum is for CMP competitions. But there are other AR-type Service Rifle/other label competitive matches, and many more than those held by CMP. There is no need to give up on the hobby.

If you have any NRA-sponsored High Power matches within your area of access, and check the 2018 NRA High Power Rule book you'll see that their Service Rifle category nearly duplicates the 2018 CMP MMR configuration specs, as they did in prior years, but without any specified weight.

I haven't seen the 2019 NRA High Power Rules yet (May-ish) but if that pattern holds its likely you're good-to-go for a NRA-sanctioned match with a CMP MMR configured AR. You just won't have to deal with the 7.5 lb. threshold, if the NRA continues not to specify a weight limit.

Look in the Coming Events section of Shooting Sports USA (monthly-on-line only) for any scheduled matches within the area you're willing to travel to. https://www.ssusa.org/coming-events/ or in the SSUSA e-magazine. http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201901/

Here's the Jan 2019 schedule. https://www.ssusa.org/media/1539923/jan_2019_ce.pdf Check regularly for updates since its early.

Here's MI contact. MICHIGAN, Utica: 200 YD, May 1-Oct. 31; L. Fey, 21046 Lantz St., Clinton Township, MI 48035; lfrey1816@comcast.net

BTW, an NRA "match" AR has equivalent specs as the CMP " Service Rifle".

https://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/...R/hpr-book.pdf

You are confused.

CMP MODERN MILITARY is a CMP GAMES match. This is a match fired entirely @ 200 yards on the SR target. The COF is 180 degrees from true high power and aligns with all of the other games matches (Garand / Springfield / vintage).

CMP High Power (non national trophy / non EIC) are referred to as CUP matches on the travel / national match level. On the club level they are no different than NRA HP matches.

CMP Modern Military rules for firearms and matches are found in the CMP GAMES Rulebook. Service rifle & match rifle rules and match procedures are found in the CMP Service Rifle Rulebook. Alternately they align generally with NRA High Power rules.

Rootsy 01-23-2019 10:33 AM

You want to know about high power matches in Michigan? Here you go...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1arL...w?usp=drivesdk

Previously posted in the Michigan sub forum BTW. This schedule is updated as / if / when things change. Link remains the same so check periodically. The rev date is in the footer.

Talyn1 01-23-2019 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rootsy (Post 1795785)
You are confused.

CMP MODERN MILITARY is a CMP GAMES match. This is a match fired entirely @ 200 yards on the SR target. The COF is 180 degrees from true high power and aligns with all of the other games matches (Garand / Springfield / vintage).

CMP High Power (non national trophy / non EIC) are referred to as CUP matches on the travel / national match level. On the club level they are no different than NRA HP matches.

CMP Modern Military rules for firearms and matches are found in the CMP GAMES Rulebook. Service rifle & match rifle rules and match procedures are found in the CMP Service Rifle Rulebook. Alternately they align generally with NRA High Power rules.


I'm not confused at all, of course the MMR is a CMP games category. But a CMP club I belong follows CMPs MMR rules albeit on a 100 yd. reduced course using reduced 200-yd SR targets (4.3.5(b)).

I clearly stated there's other matches available other than the very limited CMP Games events. And I have all the Rule Books, CMP and NRA.

Have fun shooting.


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