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-   -   Dreaming of CMP M14 Sales (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=273405)

HoosierBuddy 12-15-2020 11:47 AM

Dreaming of CMP M14 Sales
 
Hey guys,

Imagine a world where legislation (similar to the 1911 legislation a few years ago) would direct the Department of Defense to start shipping the 80,000 or so M14's in surplus inventory to the CMP.

Imagine the same world where the CMP would be authorized to reintroduce foreign (US sold/donated) M14's back into the US (similar to the Philippine Garand's they recently brought back).

OK...now that we have the fantasy steps out of the way that will never happen, let's get onto the practical issues.

1. They'd have to be converted to semi-automatic fire only.
2. CMP would have to run a lottery like they did for the 1911
3. Prices would be high. Like the 1911 likely high enough we'd all have to take a deep breath before putting it on a credit card.
4. Auction Prices for higher grade rifles would make the "high price" in 3. above seem trivial.

Yeah...it's just a dream...but...you know....so was the whole 1911 thing a few years ago.

Put me down for one.

Phil

smithpa68 12-15-2020 11:54 AM

I like that dream. Miss my M14...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quarterbore 12-15-2020 12:04 PM

There is no converting a M14 to semiauto as once a MG always a MG but I have huge hopes that someday the CMP will be able to get their hands on M14 parts kits and from there they could sell the kits or build up some specials using new Receivers.

Odds are long that the CMP would build rifles but kits used to be available so could happen again. With that said, given how many shooters use AR-15s a surplus M16 parts kit would sell well and finance CMP missions too. There are options!

SpearheadOrd 12-15-2020 12:54 PM

Believe the "Once a MG always a MG" mandate is a BATFE bureaucratic ruling and not law but it still applies and is not likely to ever change. The Army was going to sell M14M's for use in match shooting by civilians. They were M14's w/ solidly welded selector blocks. They even had a TM written that included them. The repercussions of the Kennedy assignations changed that plan.

Airborne,
Mark

Quarterbore 12-15-2020 12:59 PM

I think Iíve read the Military did modify some to semiauto only but they were used by the military teams. They have different rules obviously. I built by Bula M14 this year after 0putting that purchase off for 30 or so years. One is enough for me.

HoosierBuddy 12-15-2020 01:16 PM

"Once a Machine Gun...."

I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, etc...so take this with a grain of salt. The article below from 2018 (republished 1997 article) calls into question if BATF can continue to use this policy:

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/displ...darticles=4009

So...if you read that through (as I just did) you'll find ONCE AGAIN, I have never had an original thought in my life. The author ends up applying the court decision to a hypothetical scenario where the CMP offers semi-auto (converted) M14's. I knew that an idea this good would have already occurred to someone smarter than me in the past. But whomever came up with it...still not a terrible idea if anyone could fight through the details.

nf1e 12-15-2020 01:38 PM

Nice dream.
I would just love it if parts kits from the M14s were available again. Got a bunch of them before, but never enough.

Shomway 12-15-2020 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nf1e (Post 1995357)
Nice dream.
I would just love it if parts kits from the M14s were available again. Got a bunch of them before, but never enough.

That would be nice! I was late to the M14 build game and missed out when CMP offered their kits. Was able to get one of the Dupage offered kits a few years ago for $400 and all H&R....what a deal. Now wish I had bought more than one.

rickgman 12-15-2020 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpearheadOrd (Post 1995344)
Believe the "Once a MG always a MG" mandate is a BATFE bureaucratic ruling and not law but it still applies and is not likely to ever change.

While the BATF ruling is not a statute, it is still the law. Regulations made by authorized federal agencies (which include the BATF) have the power of law. I suspect that none of us will live long enough to see that particular regulation change or be overrulled.

Ted Brown 12-15-2020 03:02 PM

It's my understanding that the CMP did consider assembling their supply of M14 parts to commercial receivers (possibly LRB Arms) at one time, but they decided they could not align themselves with any particular commercial manufacturer (even though they did exactly that about 20 years ago with the AR15 program). In all fairness, it probably wouldn't matter any to the purchasers, but the manufacturers may have complained.

nf1e 12-15-2020 03:39 PM

It was much easier for the CMP to dump their supply of parts onto commercial builders and be done with them. I understand that's were Dupage got theirs in trade for M1 stocks. May only be a rumor, but would make perfect sense.

terry_b 12-15-2020 08:00 PM

I feel that we were lucky the CMP took over from DCM and made it their mission(not officially, but...) to get as many surplus arms, both domestic stocks and foreign) as possible out of the hands of the government and the gun crushers and into civilian hands. Prior to the establishment of the CMP there were loads of these guns being destroyed. Now to get them back into government possession is darn near impossible. Especially as original owner pass on and the guns get passed down via private sale and disappear.

HoosierBuddy 12-16-2020 08:14 AM

I thought this through to the point of figuring out a price point.

The 1911 program is selling service grade handguns at 1050 vs Colt's MSRP on a 1911 Classic (new) of $800...so 30% more than a common modern example of the same gun.

If instead we use the SA Standard M1A price point of $1700...that "backs in" to a service grade price of about $2250 per rifle. If it costs $500 per rifle to inspect, modify (once we get the whole "NOT ALLOWED BY BATF" out of the way LOL), process orders and ship....then if 5000 rifles could be processed per year that would create a net cash flow of +$8.75 Million per year for around 15 years...or $130 Million in total....and that's a conservative estimate.

Just sayin.

Step 1 is finding a congressman and a senator and explaining the dream to them.

Phil

GotSnlB28 12-16-2020 09:18 AM

Nice dream, but given current circumstances even less likely to happen, more likely even go the other direction. But if it does I'll be in line and hoping for a "luck of the draw" TRW :)

navyrifleman 12-18-2020 08:43 AM

The most accurate high power rifle I ever shot was my National Match M-14. I was still on active duty and the rifle was issued to me from the Naval Weapons Center at Crane, Indiana where their match armorers had produced it from an issue rifle.

The selector switch had been permanently altered or disabled, so there was no full automatic mode available.

It had an oversize walnut stock that had been quarter sawn, so the grain seen from the side was tight and straight. Of course it had been glass bedded. The barrel was a heavy stainless steel match one. Sights looked like the issue type, but were of Match grade with interim clicks. There were other modifications also to make it a very tight gun.

We used the leather issue slings which were always new and NOT oiled. Magazines were new issue 20 round types which were marked for use with 2 or eight rounds in the timed fire events.

The rifle was on the heavy side when compared to a hunting rifle or even an issue M-14, but what a tack driver!

petera 12-18-2020 11:47 AM

The best high power rifle I shot was an M14 built by Hook Boutin when I was with an Army AMTU team. No, I will not engage in inter service rivalry here.

Mark1 12-18-2020 01:18 PM

Nice dream and I would like one also. But with the incoming administration and their views on guns it will not happen. I just hope the CMP gets the other(s) allotment of 1911's.

Danny 12-22-2020 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoosierBuddy (Post 1995330)
Hey guys,

Imagine a world where legislation (similar to the 1911 legislation a few years ago) would direct the Department of Defense to start shipping the 80,000 or so M14's in surplus inventory to the CMP.

Imagine the same world where the CMP would be authorized to reintroduce foreign (US sold/donated) M14's back into the US (similar to the Philippine Garand's they recently brought back).

OK...now that we have the fantasy steps out of the way that will never happen, let's get onto the practical issues.

1. They'd have to be converted to semi-automatic fire only.
2. CMP would have to run a lottery like they did for the 1911
3. Prices would be high. Like the 1911 likely high enough we'd all have to take a deep breath before putting it on a credit card.
4. Auction Prices for higher grade rifles would make the "high price" in 3. above seem trivial.

Yeah...it's just a dream...but...you know....so was the whole 1911 thing a few years ago.

Put me down for one.

Phil

Not going to happen.....EVER. Same odld dream/topic, same unfortunate reality.

Danny 12-22-2020 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark1 (Post 1996226)
Nice dream and I would like one also. But with the incoming administration and their views on guns it will not happen. I just hope the CMP gets the other(s) allotment of 1911's.

This has nothing to do with the incoming administration.

Mark1 12-23-2020 03:40 PM

The National Defense Authorization Act must approve the sale of Government firearms. As they did for the 1911's to the CMP. And the NDA is a Government agency. So yes the incoming administration can effect the sale(s). Just as the Obama administration killed the sale/purchase of the South Korean Garands and carbines.

Danny 12-23-2020 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark1 (Post 1997674)
The National Defense Authorization Act must approve the sale of Government firearms. As they did for the 1911's to the CMP. And the NDA is a Government agency. So yes the incoming administration can effect the sale(s). Just as the Obama administration killed the sale/purchase of the South Korean Garands and carbines.

It's not possible now, nor was it before now, so the incoming administration has no effect on this.

cdj7097 02-01-2021 09:58 PM

If you cut off the auto lug you have an M14/M1A. Which shows the agenda of denying the public more rifles. The "once rule" really shows the stupidity of the ruling. That lug and another small cut on the receiver as we all know is the only thing that seperates the M1A from the M14, with exception of course of the dangerous receiver markings.

krdomingue 02-02-2021 03:54 PM

The CMP sold M14 parts kits way back when made up from decommissioned M14s, but that is no longer possible. The current practice/policy(law?) is to destroy every functional part of any automatic rifle, so nothing is left but scrap.

KH223 02-02-2021 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krdomingue (Post 2011245)
The CMP sold M14 parts kits way back when made up from decommissioned M14s, but that is no longer possible. The current practice/policy(law?) is to destroy every functional part of any automatic rifle, so nothing is left but scrap.

Your tax dollars at work..........they could make more money on them, but choose to destroy the parts.............really dumb

Gewehr43 02-02-2021 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krdomingue (Post 2011245)
The CMP sold M14 parts kits way back when made up from decommissioned M14s, but that is no longer possible. The current practice/policy(law?) is to destroy every functional part of any automatic rifle, so nothing is left but scrap.

Your source for the comment?
What policy or law are you referring to?

krdomingue 02-03-2021 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gewehr43 (Post 2011402)
Your source for the comment?
What policy or law are you referring to?

There was/is a youtube video of the destruction process (captain Crunch), and in it was explained that they were required to make sure each part was destroyed. Even showed them combing through the destroyed weapons looking for parts that still needed destruction and then taking a blowtorch to them. I can't find the video, but here is a link to the article tied to it:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...ating-machine/

Gewehr43 02-03-2021 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krdomingue (Post 2011571)
There was/is a youtube video of the destruction process (captain Crunch), and in it was explained that they were required to make sure each part was destroyed. Even showed them combing through the destroyed weapons looking for parts that still needed destruction and then taking a blowtorch to them. I can't find the video, but here is a link to the article tied to it:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...ating-machine/

Oh ..... the article you linked was from 2016 and the imbedded video from 2007...........

But the problem with assuming what they are or aren't destroying now is that:

-there were Govt orders to stop the destruction of M1, M1911's etc.
-The M14 began to be retrofitted and used again by the Military beginning in the early 2000's and were used up until the 2014 timeframe........

So whatever weapons they are destroying now are not those.......
ie the parts shown in the picture look like M16A1 parts.........

Not mention, as the photo shows, the parts/rifles, whatever, maynot be serviceable anyways.
Anniston is a HUGE arsenal rebuilding/retrofitting ALL sorts of weapon/systems.....
So they maybe destroying unserviceable parts........

jeeperbob 02-03-2021 06:27 PM

Is it a dream? Look deep into my eyes, you're getting sleepy, sleepy, sleepy.

krdomingue 02-03-2021 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gewehr43 (Post 2011612)
Oh ..... the article you linked was from 2016 and the imbedded video from 2007...........

But the problem with assuming what they are or aren't destroying now is that:

-there were Govt orders to stop the destruction of M1, M1911's etc.
-The M14 began to be retrofitted and used again by the Military beginning in the early 2000's and were used up until the 2014 timeframe........

So whatever weapons they are destroying now are not those.......
ie the parts shown in the picture look like M16A1 parts.........

Not mention, as the photo shows, the parts/rifles, whatever, maynot be serviceable anyways.
Anniston is a HUGE arsenal rebuilding/retrofitting ALL sorts of weapon/systems.....
So they maybe destroying unserviceable parts........

True a little dated, but my response was limited to Automatic weapons. 1911s are not in question. While I can't sight you a source, because I don't care enough to go to the trouble, I am pretty sure the government stance on surplus automatic weapons has not changed.

Gewehr43 02-03-2021 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krdomingue (Post 2011641)
True a little dated, but my response was limited to Automatic weapons. 1911s are not in question. While I can't sight you a source, because I don't care enough to go to the trouble, I am pretty sure the government stance on surplus automatic weapons has not changed.

Oh, I thought this thread was about M14's......
Nevermind then.

rickgman 02-03-2021 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krdomingue (Post 2011641)
True a little dated, but my response was limited to Automatic weapons. 1911s are not in question. While I can't sight you a source, because I don't care enough to go to the trouble, I am pretty sure the government stance on surplus automatic weapons has not changed.

I agree with Gewehr 43 relative to M14ís. The Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force and Coast Guard all began using M14 variants starting around 2000. They certainly werenít scrapping any serviceable M14ís after that time.

ZvenoMan 02-03-2021 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krdomingue (Post 2011641)
True a little dated, but my response was limited to Automatic weapons. 1911s are not in question. While I can't sight you a source, because I don't care enough to go to the trouble, I am pretty sure the government stance on surplus automatic weapons has not changed.

You care to post a controversial and disputed comment but don't care to go to the trouble to provide a citation. Nice.

I stopped at the article, no need to watch a video. There is no need to completely destroy are receiver, the BATFE regs on this are well known. But hey, popular mechanics wrote it, they must know what they are talking about.

Just where did all the M14 parts kits come from (not just the ones CMP was selling) if the govt had to grind up all the parts? M16 part kits.......

JH

Gewehr43 02-03-2021 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickgman (Post 2011678)
I agree with Gewehr 43 relative to M14’s. The Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force and Coast Guard all began using M14 variants starting around 2000. They certainly weren’t scrapping any serviceable M14’s after that time.

Yes and that is my point here.....

Does the US Military destroy obsolete and unserviceable weapons/parts?
Yes, I'm sure they do.
But with the intervention by Conservatives in the Federal Govt.... they stopped destroying rifles like the M1 and M14 and pistols like the M1911's since I believe the mid-90's.
Since 2000 or so the M14 were refurbished and sent to units.
So No..... certainly since then they have not been destroying "good" M14's.

As far as the original comment about M14's - true M14's- being sold to Civilians ....... that ship sailed about 1970 or so.......
And no reason at all to think that will change.....

Though ironically there are some (alot?) true M14's out there.......
And for quite a while their prices didn't take off like other full-autos.
Even now they can be bought relatively cheap.............

Random Guy 02-04-2021 08:23 AM

I won’t wade too far into this thread, but no need to “dream” about CMP selling M14s, not going to happen anymore than CMP selling any other obsolete machine guns like an M60. There are select fire SAI M1As (made prior to 1986) on gunbroker from time to time, just need a deep pocket to buy one for $10k or $15k. (There is one listed right now for less than $10k). Transferable select fire weapons are expensive, and generally getting more expensive over time.

Secondly, my understanding is the US Army doesn’t intend to field M14s again given the 6k new SDM 7.62 rifles from H&K are the replacement platform. Thus rather than keeping the serviceable ones in reserve, they are now being sold off via our Foreign Military Sales program. I read that Estonia is buying some of our refurbished M14 EBRs, and perhaps a couple of other countries, but I don’t have confirmation. (I suspect mostly Eastern European countries, but perhaps others). The U.S. Army's ceremonial guard unit, such as seen at Tomb of the Unknown Solider, still uses M14s, but I read that is the last Army unit issued M14s. The Navy still uses some M14s, etc. (Not sure if the Coast Guard still uses them, but possibly).

Anyhow, it doesn’t make any sense to think that CMP is ever going to sell M14s anymore than it does to think they will sell obsolete M16s or M60s from the Vietnam era....ain’t happening. That’s precisely why SAI, Fulton, Bula, LRB, JRA and others were formed and have sold hundreds of thousands of M1As for the past several decades - to meet market demand for a semi-auto version of that old military rifle...(and some form of warranty typically exists from these commercial manufactures).

Fogtripper 02-04-2021 08:33 AM

I am more interested in thompson part kits.

nf1e 02-04-2021 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogtripper (Post 2011790)
I am more interested in thompson part kits.

You may need to make a trip to Russia for that. I hear there a bunch left over from the ones we gave them.

Random Guy 02-04-2021 09:09 AM

Quote:

I am more interested in thompson part kits.
I have no special insights, but my guess is all the old and obsolete Thompson SMGs were likely de-militarized decades ago, perhaps the 1970s-80s. I could be wrong, but I would be surprised if CMP had any parts kits for such an old platform, given they were not kept in reserve like the M14 main battle rifles were. (I wonder if M14 parts from de-milled M14s were kept in inventory partly for reserve/preservation purposes - given that 15 or 20 years ago the Army had almost 100k M14 rifles listed in inventory as serviceable weapons ("condition A"), but keeping/stockpiling WWII era Thompson parts likely had little to no strategic value by the 1970s.) I have no special insights as to what is stored at Anniston, but my guess is the ship sailed a long time ago regarding de-milled Thompsons...(unless the Russians decide to return whatever we loaned them 75 or 80 years ago that hasn't rusted away - or quietly sold off in the 1990s following the collapse of the Soviet Union and related 'fire-sales' of state assets and/or quasi-state assets...).

SpearheadOrd 02-04-2021 11:09 AM

There was an older distinguished British gentleman at the Nations Gun show in Chantilly VA a few years ago selling Thompson parts. He told me they came from Russian surplus Thompsons he had purchased and had imported to England. He disassembled the Thompson's and legally imported the parts less receivers to the States. Believe this was before the barrel importation ban. He added that all of the receivers were in his basement in the UK, they were the only parts he could have there. He has since passed away so no idea what came of the receivers or the remaining parts.

Remember all the Russian repackaged .45 ACP ammo a few years ago also? It came from the same shipments to the Russians in WW II. They took all the ammo out of US original packaging put them in plain boxes and Russian style ammo cans that required that "can opener" to unseal them. I shot a lot of that ammo in IDPA matches until it got way too expensive to buy. Guess it all got purchased and shot up because didn't see it during the Obama ammo frenzy time frame, It was all early WW II brass case ammo. I am still reloading the brass

Airborne,
Mark

GMTECH485 03-29-2021 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoosierBuddy (Post 1995555)
I thought this through to the point of figuring out a price point.

The 1911 program is selling service grade handguns at 1050 vs Colt's MSRP on a 1911 Classic (new) of $800...so 30% more than a common modern example of the same gun.

If instead we use the SA Standard M1A price point of $1700...that "backs in" to a service grade price of about $2250 per rifle. If it costs $500 per rifle to inspect, modify (once we get the whole "NOT ALLOWED BY BATF" out of the way LOL), process orders and ship....then if 5000 rifles could be processed per year that would create a net cash flow of +$8.75 Million per year for around 15 years...or $130 Million in total....and that's a conservative estimate.

Just sayin.

Step 1 is finding a congressman and a senator and explaining the dream to them.

Phil

It's truly only a dream Phil.
Itll never happen.

We'll be lucky to keep what we have now

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdj7097 (Post 2011047)
If you cut off the auto lug you have an M14/M1A. Which shows the agenda of denying the public more rifles. The "once rule" really shows the stupidity of the ruling. That lug and another small cut on the receiver as we all know is the only thing that seperates the M1A from the M14, with exception of course of the dangerous receiver markings.

Preaching to the choir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gewehr43 (Post 2011695)
Yes and that is my point here.....

Does the US Military destroy obsolete and unserviceable weapons/parts?
Yes, I'm sure they do.
But with the intervention by Conservatives in the Federal Govt.... they stopped destroying rifles like the M1 and M14 and pistols like the M1911's since I believe the mid-90's.
Since 2000 or so the M14 were refurbished and sent to units.
So No..... certainly since then they have not been destroying "good" M14's.

As far as the original comment about M14's - true M14's- being sold to Civilians ....... that ship sailed about 1970 or so.......
And no reason at all to think that will change.....

Though ironically there are some (alot?) true M14's out there.......
And for quite a while their prices didn't take off like other full-autos.
Even now they can be bought relatively cheap.............

The last grandfathered M14 I saw sell was many years ago and it went fo 27000.00.
Not exactly cheap and trust me, they are few and far between

dogrunner 03-30-2021 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navyrifleman (Post 1996145)
The most accurate high power rifle I ever shot was my National Match M-14. I was still on active duty and the rifle was issued to me from the Naval Weapons Center at Crane, Indiana where their match armorers had produced it from an issue rifle.

The selector switch had been permanently altered or disabled, so there was no full automatic mode available.

It had an oversize walnut stock that had been quarter sawn, so the grain seen from the side was tight and straight. Of course it had been glass bedded. The barrel was a heavy stainless steel match one. Sights looked like the issue type, but were of Match grade with interim clicks. There were other modifications also to make it a very tight gun.

We used the leather issue slings which were always new and NOT oiled. Magazines were new issue 20 round types which were marked for use with 2 or eight rounds in the timed fire events.

The rifle was on the heavy side when compared to a hunting rifle or even an issue M-14, but what a tack driver!


Also shot an issue match grade 14 in competition while in the Army in early '60's...our rifles fit your general description, but were not permanently modified to SA...stocks were glassed, sights were NM. Notably the bores were not plated.

As you say, rifles were damned good shooters and it was no real chore to hold center at 100 meters offhand.........in point of fact it got to be a game to shoot the spotting disk on a center hit.

Frankly, I'm only sorry that I could not figure out how to swipe mine as it damned well would be on my wall now........notably, we were forbidden to break down ours for cleaning...just the stock bore wipe and turn her in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdj7097 (Post 2011047)
If you cut off the auto lug you have an M14/M1A. Which shows the agenda of denying the public more rifles. The "once rule" really shows the stupidity of the ruling. That lug and another small cut on the receiver as we all know is the only thing that seperates the M1A from the M14, with exception of course of the dangerous receiver markings.

You forgot to mention the 'slice' cut on the receiver (front receiver underside) for the operating trip rod and the 'tit' on the sear's right side.


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