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-   -   RIA M1905 Bayonet - Is it a Reproduction? (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=278720)

Coal-Cracker 03-15-2021 02:42 PM

RIA M1905 Bayonet - Is it a Reproduction?
 
Just picked this one up. I'm still new at this, but at first glance, it seems legit. The logo/font looks to match other RIA bayonets from 1919. It also appears to have been polished (maybe chromed?), as I was also under the impression it should have been parkerized at this date range.

The serial number is way too early from the RIA known serial number databases I've found online. It should have been made in late 1917, but the year stamp indicates 1919.

Any ideas? Is this a fake?

Thank you, in advance.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a1a23e577a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...cf32e70476.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e4910d64e0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...77dfd426bb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b2fa8f10f6.jpg

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M1Garandy 03-15-2021 03:03 PM

I like it as original plated for parade use etc.

Coal-Cracker 03-15-2021 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1Garandy (Post 2026035)
I like it as original plated for parade use etc.

Should the serial number being out of sync with the known online serial number databases be a concern?

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M1Garandy 03-15-2021 03:16 PM

I can't speak to the S/N issue definitively. Maybe it was an old blade blank that was reworked etc. as the S/N table I am aware of matches your OP: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_42.htm

Fenris_Bane 03-15-2021 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coal-Cracker (Post 2026025)
Just picked this one up. I'm still new at this, but at first glance, it seems legit. The logo/font looks to match other RIA bayonets from 1919. It also appears to have been polished (maybe chromed?), as I was also under the impression it should have been parkerized at this date range.

The serial number is way too early from the RIA known serial number databases I've found online. It should have been made in late 1917, but the year stamp indicates 1919.

Any ideas? Is this a fake?

Thank you, in advance.

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"The Springfield Edge" web site http://springfieldedge.com/research_1905_ri.html has data from

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY
Edged Weapon Survey Data
by Thomas J. Wiltzius

It notes that 1917-1919 there was a substantial of "overlap" between production number and serial numbers. This may not actually be an "overlap" but may indicate that the blades were serial numbered first with the year added when they were completed. For example, there are a few 1906 blades numbered up 82,658 but some 1907 blades numbered as low as 76,848.

Check below in regards to the 1917 data. There is a 54,803 gap between the lowest and the highest numbers when only 400 were reportedly made. The serial number rand 1917-1919 indicates 128,000 blades were made. But the serial number range is 179,607 or 51,607 more blades than reported.

This data says, in part, (from the web page).

Year - No. Made --- Low SN. ---- High SN.
1917 ------- 400 -- 250,327 ---- 305,130**
1918 --- 36,500 -- 304,577 ---- 428,135**
1919 --- 91,100 -- 313,051** - 429,934

** Indicates where serial number are known to overlap the presented (lowest known) serial number of the following year. This was caused when bayonets were dated at the end of the calendar year, then stored for straightening, inspection and stamping with a serial number. At the beginning of the calendar year, when bayonets in production were stamped with the new year’s date and sent to storage, it appears that some of the more recent bayonets were brought out before the slightly older ones.

Low/High serial numbers that differ from observations of Wm. Brophy, as published in "The Springfield 1903 Rifle", are from research in progress by author.

Coal-Cracker 03-16-2021 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenris_Bane (Post 2026153)
"The Springfield Edge" web site http://springfieldedge.com/research_1905_ri.html has data from



SPRINGFIELD ARMORY

Edged Weapon Survey Data

by Thomas J. Wiltzius



It notes that 1917-1919 there was a substantial of "overlap" between production number and serial numbers. This may not actually be an "overlap" but may indicate that the blades were serial numbered first with the year added when they were completed. For example, there are a few 1906 blades numbered up 82,658 but some 1907 blades numbered as low as 76,848.



Check below in regards to the 1917 data. There is a 54,803 gap between the lowest and the highest numbers when only 400 were reportedly made. The serial number rand 1917-1919 indicates 128,000 blades were made. But the serial number range is 179,607 or 51,607 more blades than reported.



This data says, in part, (from the web page).



Year - No. Made --- Low SN. ---- High SN.

1917 ------- 400 -- 250,327 ---- 305,130**

1918 --- 36,500 -- 304,577 ---- 428,135**

1919 --- 91,100 -- 313,051** - 429,934



** Indicates where serial number are known to overlap the presented (lowest known) serial number of the following year. This was caused when bayonets were dated at the end of the calendar year, then stored for straightening, inspection and stamping with a serial number. At the beginning of the calendar year, when bayonets in production were stamped with the new year’s date and sent to storage, it appears that some of the more recent bayonets were brought out before the slightly older ones.



Low/High serial numbers that differ from observations of Wm. Brophy, as published in "The Springfield 1903 Rifle", are from research in progress by author.

Thank you for that. Also very informative and helpful.

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Charlie Flick 03-28-2021 06:22 PM

Be aware of the important difference depending on whether the Fiscal Year of the Arsenal is being used or the calendar year. As I recall without going back to check my sources the annual reports on production at Springfield Armory and RIA used the fiscal year, not the calendar year.

Regards,
Charlie

DougS 04-01-2021 08:06 PM

if Rock Island bayonets followed Rock Island rifle production in serialization then the number on the bayonet does not seem out of line with a 1919 date.


•RIA PRODUCTION OF MODEL 1903

1903 1 7500
1904 7501 16000
1905 16001 28000
1906 28001 75000
1907 75001 130000
1908 130001 165000
1909 165001 178000
1910 178001 201000
1911 201001 210634
1912 210635 217801
1913 217802 234830
1914 PRODUCTION TEMPORARILY SUSPENDED
1915 PRODUCTION TEMPORARILY SUSPENDED
1916 PRODUCTION TEMPORARILY SUSPENDED
1917 234831 257061
1918 257062 326935
1919 326936 348414
TOTAL: 346000

Tom in N.J. 04-02-2021 08:45 AM

RIA started M1905 bayonet production in 1906. The majority of 1906 RIA bayonets are un numbered.

schutzen-jager 04-04-2021 12:48 PM

found this 1906 dated one at estate sale yesterday - can not post pictures on this forum but i have some posted on RFC -
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...9#post12272679


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