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-   -   2019 modern military (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=239559)

FF1915 01-11-2019 11:57 AM

2019 modern military
 
Please advise on this. As I read the rules that were just posted it states a weight limit of 7.5 pounds for class A modern military. This places the BONE STOCK A2 and A4 with removable carry handle in the unlimited class. How does this keep with the intent or sport of the games? Either you buy another rifle or are forced to compete with guys running short match barrels and skeletonized rifles. The weight of a stock A2 or A4 is 8.6 pounds.

ceresco 01-11-2019 01:45 PM

The new class is going to be a basic iron sight rifle or carbine. A quick look has M16 weight at 7.5# and the M4 carbine considerably lighter...... Good Shooting. ..

FF1915 01-11-2019 02:22 PM

https://m.imgur.com/account/FF1915/images

FF1915 01-11-2019 02:28 PM

Rock river A2 according to their web page lists @ 8.6. Colt lists @ 7.7 both over the limit!

Rootsy 01-11-2019 03:03 PM

You aren’t going to make weight with a 20” HBAR or other heavy under handguard barrel.

FF1915 01-11-2019 03:54 PM

https://www.colt.com/detail-page/col...rem-556nato-20
The 7.7 is not an H-bar

ceresco 01-11-2019 05:35 PM

" capacity 30+1" Colt weighed it with a magazine. CMP weight is without mag (and sling). You get to play with various stocks and handguards too. Good Shooting....

FF1915 01-11-2019 05:40 PM

That’s my point at what time does swapping parts make it non standard?

Herzo 01-12-2019 05:32 PM

do we have to go back to an A2 upper receiver or will a removable carry handle be acceptable? can I use a BUIS for a front sight or do I have to swap out my gas block and will it have to be riveted or will a clamp/screw be ok?

30calmike 01-12-2019 05:42 PM

So, as I understand the 2019 MM Match rules, there can be three MM classes; A, B and Unlimited. I assume that means us "dirty thirty" shooters will not be competing against any of the 5.56mm bunch. I wonder if that means separate awards for the different classes, at least at CP?
Might be worth shooting again.
Mike.

ceresco 01-12-2019 08:20 PM

While the rules allow A&B to be separated, I have never seen this done. I think you will see MM (A&B) and MM Unlimited. At least, with the scopes in unlimited, your M14 has a chance. Good Shooting. ...

FF1915 01-12-2019 09:07 PM

So here’s my thing. I am glad they changed the rules. However I must admit I was a bit perturbed when reading the new rules and here is why. I purchased a rifle when I thought I wanted to start competing. The last rule change pushed it out of competition so I purchased a rockriver “standard A4.” Now it’s out of competition for the stock class due to weight. I’m glad I don’t have to compete with those who tried to push the rules to the limit as they will now be in the unlimited class. My problem is I have to buy yet another rifle.

la Fiere 01-12-2019 09:39 PM

I just weighed my MM rifle - 20" GI contour barrel - 8.2# as pictured (but without the sling).


Seems like the only way to make 7.5# would be with a 16" barrel.







http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL130.../413935500.jpg

ceresco 01-12-2019 09:44 PM

AR parts have never been cheaper. Buy what you need and rebuild one of your rifles to make the weight limit. I've lost count of the MM AR uppers I've built keeping up with the rule changes. At least I still have a HB A2 carbine upper...but now it needs a free float HG. Neverending. Good Shooting. ...

Talyn1 01-12-2019 09:45 PM

Vendors weights are all over the place. DPMS lists their weight at 9 lbs. with an HBAR barrel.

PSA lists their classic at 6.5 lbs. and Windham Weaponry lists their A2 Classic at 7.7 lbs., both with A4 Flat Top Uppers and 20" Govt-profile barrels.

Add the two weights & divide by 2 = 7.1 lbs. ;)

When I get my new A2 carry handle w/20" Govt-profile barrel build built it should be lighter than a flat-top upper. When done I'll weigh mine on a digital scale.

ceresco 01-12-2019 09:52 PM

Don't need a flash hider and the adjustable stocks (spring and buffer) weigh less than the A2 stock... The old A1 upper without the forward assist and deflector is lighter... Short barrel, aluminum barrel nut and light free float HG..... Lots of options. Good Shooting. .....

TW56 01-12-2019 09:55 PM

1985 Colt Sporter II with 20" 1/7 twist barrel, A1 upper, no case deflector, tear drop forward assist, round handguards with heat shields weighs exactly 7.2 pounds with a silent sling attached.

rickgman 01-12-2019 09:56 PM

I predict that these latest changes will not create more confusion and frustration than anyone can imagine. The weight limits force way too many rifles into the unlimited classification. A standard M1A with a walnut stock is now over weight.

FF1915 01-12-2019 09:59 PM

I have a hard enough time with length of pull and my beard gets hung up in the collapsible stocks lol.

FF1915 01-12-2019 10:01 PM

Not mention the standard Springfield M1A isn’t legal with the front sight supplied with the rifle. Found that out at the 600 after I drove 450 miles.

la Fiere 01-12-2019 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceresco (Post 1792212)
Don't need a flash hider and the adjustable stocks (spring and buffer) weigh less than the A2 stock... The old A1 upper without the forward assist and deflector is lighter... Short barrel, aluminum barrel nut and light free float HG..... Lots of options. Good Shooting. .....



Good advice, thanks.



I'm perplexed why my rifle weighs as much as it does. Looking at the PSA "Classic" on their website it seems to be more or less the same as mine, but is listed at 6.5#.

Herzo 01-12-2019 10:28 PM

Just checked my 16" M4gery, 7.2# with sling and adjustable stock. Plan to put floated tube on it, might add an ounce, would like to know if I will need to swap the gas block to a GI front sight. I assume that the removable carry handle will pass muster.

3006 01-12-2019 10:29 PM

My new SAI std (wood) weights 9 pd 1.7 oz, so I removed the folding butt plate pc now I’m under 9 pounds. Mine has a NM frt sight also, can’t believe that moves you to unlimited. Windy City has GI std front sights for $19

ceresco 01-12-2019 10:39 PM

M14 weight is listed as 9.1# with cleaning kit. Without the FA parts?? CMP is not going to DQ a standard M1A or M14 clone on weight. There are many stock options that can reduce weight. An outstanding offhand can keep a M14 in the game. Good Shooting. ...

FF1915 01-12-2019 10:43 PM

Don't need a flash hider and the adjustable stocks (spring and buffer) weigh less than the A2 stock... The old A1 upper without the forward assist and deflector is lighter... Short barrel, aluminum barrel nut and light free float HG..... Lots of options

While all this is true, I’m of the mindset that this way of operating is what got me into this mess in the first place. Folks started buying match barrels and cutting them down, milling slots in the receivers, aluminum barrel nuts.... Next thing you know here comes another rule change. And yes parts are not as expensive as they have been but not everyone has disposable income to keep up with the guys trying to bend the rules. Thankfully I don’t fall into that category. All I would like to see is a level playing field and allow all “standard” rifles.

FF1915 01-12-2019 10:44 PM

3006
As I stand here the front sight earned me a different color zip tie.

Talyn1 01-12-2019 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TW56 (Post 1792213)
1985 Colt Sporter II with 20" 1/7 twist barrel, A1 upper, no case deflector, tear drop forward assist, round handguards with heat shields weighs exactly 7.2 pounds with a silent sling attached.

+1. Based on all that I figure I'll be OK with my A2 upper w/a 20" Govt profile. I don't think the A2 sights & case deflector will weigh 4.8 oz. But I'll weigh it once completed.

HighpowerRifleBrony 01-13-2019 12:23 AM

My M4gery with UTG Pro FF quadrail, DCH, and web sling is 7.5lbs +/-0.25lb, according to my vintage grocery scale.

dw617 01-13-2019 07:05 AM

Looks like my Bula M14 and Colt AR15A2 HBAR are both out....

WRT to UMM

Combining the new MM rule of float tube and UMM rule of no weight limit, it appears I can shoot my AR15 Service Rifle? I wouldn't, but guys who shot MM last year and get "bumped" into UMM have this to complete next to?

rickgman 01-13-2019 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceresco (Post 1792229)
M14 weight is listed as 9.1# with cleaning kit. Without the FA parts?? CMP is not going to DQ a standard M1A or M14 clone on weight. There are many stock options that can reduce weight. An outstanding offhand can keep a M14 in the game. Good Shooting. ...

To quote M14 spec weights is not telling the story relative to SAI M1A's. The SAI specs state that a standard M1A with a walnut stock weighs in at 9.3 lbs (on average). You can get to 8.8 lbs with a plastic stock but they are well known for deteriorating accuracy. As someone earlier suggested, replacing the buttplate might do the trick but it would be best to actually weigh one's rifle to ensure it will make weight. The density of each stock varies.

Talyn1 01-13-2019 02:21 PM

If CMPs intent was to develop a MMR Class (A) that appears to be oriented to standard-issue US military rifles to encourage more-participation, then developed weight specs that are below, or at the edge of what commercial-equivalents actually weigh and knowing that there are variations in weight in standard configurations, then they cut things a bit too close. Then CMP used open-ended language saying that..."the external configuration of the rifle must be "similar" to that of the original or military-type rifle".

Because the Service Rifle rules specifically requires the retention of certain components to retain the semblance of a service rifle (mil-spec CH, A1-A2 grip, etc.), why didn't CMP do the same for Standard/Class A and specifically list the specs for govt. issue barrel contours, etc. to meet a general weight target?

The CMP allows for a float tube on a Class A rifle when that inherently adds weight, and float tubes are not a standard US mil feature on an A2 rifle or carbine. IMO, shooters may have to use non-standard components (pencil barrels) in order to meet a razors-edge weight spec for Class A. CMP should have thought that Class A weight should be within +/- 6-8 oz. (1/2 lb.) of the 7.5 lb. spec., especially when standard classic A2, 20" govt-profile barrel, commercial equivalents are within a few oz. of the 7.5 lb. weight.

And for other Class B rifles the previous post indicates that the standard SAI M1A weight is already above the CMP weight threshold.

Also, in Rule 5.2.3(c), Rifles must be equipped with "issue-type" metallic front and rear sight"... What exactly is the issue-type sights if they are front & rear BUIS? With a rifle with a FSB are the older MATECH rear BUIS the only legal issue-type rear sight?

It seems to me that a lot of supposed Class A ARs will be bumped into the unlimited MMR category where more-refined Service Rifles are also "good-to-go".

My .02

FF1915 01-13-2019 02:27 PM

Thank you for saying what I was incapable of due to frustration.

la Fiere 01-13-2019 03:12 PM

More Food for Thought
 
As an experiment I swapped some parts around. This is the same configuration as the rifle pictured in Post #13 except with a 16" barrel and mid-length gas system.


Still not legal - weighs 7.9#.



http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL130.../414113041.jpg

Talyn1 01-13-2019 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la Fiere (Post 1792458)
As an experiment I swapped some parts around. This is the same configuration as the rifle pictured in Post #13 except with a 16" barrel and mid-length gas system.


Still not legal - weighs 7.9#.



http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL130.../414113041.jpg

Yea, I don't know what CMP is thinking if a rifle in that configuration can't meet the weight threshold.

I don't see any fancy/extra bells & whistles that would give you a competitive advantage in that configuration with the pistol grip.
IMO that rifle is consistent with the 5.2.2 & 5.2.3 specs.

But considering you're in Kalifornia I'm not sure your rifle meets your states restrictive specs. Hope the Governors' black helicopters don't sweep down on you.

la Fiere 01-13-2019 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talyn1 (Post 1792462)
Yea, I don't know what CMP is thinking if a rifle in that configuration can't meet the weight threshold.

I don't see any fancy/extra bells & whistles that would give you a competitive advantage in that configuration with the pistol grip.
IMO that rifle is consistent with the 5.2.2 & 5.2.3 specs.

But considering you're in Kalifornia I'm not sure your rifle meets your states restrictive specs. Hope the Governors' black helicopters don't sweep down on you.


The magazine cannot be removable without breaking open the action. A special mag release with that functionality is required. No effect on weight to speak of, however.



Basic issue still remains - rifle is seemingly exactly what the MM rules envision, but won't make weight.

Talyn1 01-13-2019 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la Fiere (Post 1792466)
The magazine cannot be removable without breaking open the action. A special mag release with that functionality is required. No effect on weight to speak of, however.



Basic issue still remains - rifle is seemingly exactly what the MM rules envision, but won't make weight.

Yea I knew about the break open requirement. I thought pistol grips were a total no-no.

Maybe CMP had a AR built with titanium parts to make weight. :(

rickgman 01-13-2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talyn1 (Post 1792469)

Maybe CMP had a AR built with titanium parts to make weight. :(

Or maybe the rule makers didn't know what they were doing. I'd bet on that explanation.

Talyn1 01-13-2019 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickgman (Post 1792497)
Or maybe the rule makers didn't know what they were doing. I'd bet on that explanation.


I agree.

Right now I have a A2 fixed carry-handle build (w/BCG, fixed stock, spring, buffer, etc. & complete lower guts) w/o the front end (20" govt-profile barrel, FH, A2 handguards, FSB, rifle-length gas tube, and assorted barrel attachment parts) at 4.1 lbs. (Edit - remeasured 3X on digital scale after taking out an empty 20 rd. Lancer mag)

So I have 3.4 lbs. left for the front end to make a completely standard plain-Jane AR15A2 within the 7.5 lb. threshold.

If I can't do that then CMP doesn't know what a completely standard plain-Jane AR15A2 even weighs.

In contrast my Service rifle (flat-top upper, UBR Gen 1 stock + 1/2 lb. of weight, Hi-Lux XTC 1-3x34 scope w/WOA 10 MOA rail & NF low 20mm rings, RRA NM barrel FSB front end) that meets the new 2019 SR Spec Rules weighs in at 12.2 lbs. w/o sling & 20 rd. empty mag.

I would up the MMR Class A weight to 8 lbs. That should fix things for that Class.

Hello CMP Rules Team. Any one home?

Talyn1 01-13-2019 07:24 PM

I was just looking at Spikes Tactical 20" retro.

They list this info.

(Rifle’s include hard case and manual)

Weight: 9lb


The way I ready it that the hard case adds to the listed weight. I would expect the rifle is a lb. less in weight.

Jeremy2171 01-13-2019 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talyn1 (Post 1792504)
I agree.

Right now I have a A2 fixed carry-handle build (w/BCG, fixed stock, spring, buffer, etc. & complete lower guts) w/o the front end (20" govt-profile barrel, FH, A2 handguards, FSB, rifle-length gas tube, and assorted barrel attachment parts) at 4.1 lbs. (Edit - remeasured 3X on digital scale after taking out an empty 20 rd. Lancer mag)

So I have 3.4 lbs. left for the front end to make a completely standard plain-Jane AR15A2 within the 7.5 lb. threshold.

If I can't do that then CMP doesn't know what a completely standard plain-Jane AR15A2 even weighs.

In contrast my Service rifle (flat-top upper, UBR Gen 1 stock + 1/2 lb. of weight, Hi-Lux XTC 1-3x34 scope w/WOA 10 MOA rail & NF low 20mm rings, RRA NM barrel FSB front end) that meets the new 2019 SR Spec Rules weighs in at 12.2 lbs. w/o sling & 20 rd. empty mag.

I would up the MMR Class A weight to 8 lbs. That should fix things for that Class.

Hello CMP Rules Team. Any one home?

Good luck getting a response...

Rules team still can't explain why WW2/KW era vintage semis are stuck competing in the MM class...nothing like shooting a 1950 rifle against a 2017 rifle...


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