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  #31  
Old 09-16-2020, 04:21 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
The 1911 is still Superior - unless you miss a lot and need lots of rounds. A handgun is NOT what you knowingly take to a battle as your Primary weapon - it is an immediate, reactive emergency weapon to carry when you don't have your long gun within reach - and thus a superior trigger, excellent natural pointing angle and ADEQUATE calibers make it STILL the 1911 the Best Choice - unless a "Box Fed Revolver" (ie - plastic, striker fired pistol) is all you can personally manage....in which case guns are probably a bad idea, anyway.

The 1911 has a better trigger than ANY Plastic pistol, is flatter, easier to carry/conceal, has better ergonomics (particularly for small hands), is safer and comes in all popular to serious Calibers. But it is made of STEEL - thus more expensive - and designed for an intelligent, aware user - also a negative these days, it seems.

We only dropped the 1911 and bought the Beretta so Italy would in turn adopt the F-16 and let us put Nukes on their soil. Nothing to do with need or combat efficency. Double Action Autos are a Lousy idea - designed for the lowest common denominator by Europeans - who don't know squat about gunfighting.

I fully agree that pistol training in the military is abysmal. And the silly idea that cocked and locked is not safe is based on half or untrained users - which goes right back to inadequate training.

The 9MM is and always was a weak sister, and as was well discussed above by rickgman, the "better bullets" make ALL calibers better - but may reduce penetration. If you examine the .36 caliber world, the .357 Magnum with 1450 fps or better is a Death Ray with 96% actual stopping results - the .38 Special/9MM at lower velocities are Duds by comparison.

Unless you get the 9mm up to an equal velocity, you are kidding yourself with the false "All pistol calibers do the same thing" BS the FBI is using to justify choosing pistols that over-educated modern 5'2" Cop Chicks and urban Pajama Boys can handle. Go back to 5'10"/170 lbs. and real LE physical requirements, don't lower standards so "anybody can be an FBI/Police/Sheriff's Officer". Then they won't need mouse guns and backup every time they make a traffic stop.

The current popular retort/excuse for the 9 is that "Shot Placement, Shot Placement, Shot Placement" magically makes the small bores the better choice. The problem with that theory is that can you guarantee that Shot Placement, every time, when surprised, frightened, in the dark, tired, etc.? Police pistol CHAMPIONS have completely missed their opponents "when the Flag flies" at less than 20 feet. It's more than Range Marksmanship, folks. I can make the same shot with a 10MM or .45 as with my .38 Super or 9MM. (Same gun - 1911). The 1911 is THE Choice - but it's not for the lower tier person. Which, unfortunately, is who LE must hire these days. Sigh.... CC

OP:
I 'll be honest, I loathe these threads. There isn't much to be gained by them.

CC:
I'm not sure how much of what you've posted is sarcasm, or simply nostalgia.

The M1911 is one of many good pistols out there, though it is dated and has its flaws, like any other gun you look at realistically. Yes, in the military the pistol is a defensive weapon and so not your "primary weapon" as you call it.
But for the Police and the average citizen carrying concealed.... it is.

The 1911 may have a better trigger, particularly when tuned but it has poor factory sights and no prevision for a light to be mounted. In the early 20th century small poor sights were the norm, now large sights that are quick to align are better. The original M9 had the same problem- lack of flash light.
That too is indispensable in current handgun fighting. Both have or can be upgraded but to ignore those issues isn't fair.

Just about ANY pistol nowadays is ".....is flatter, easier to carry/conceal, has better ergonomics (particularly for small hands), is safer and comes in all popular to serious Calibers......." So to be honest, that isn't a positive to only the 1911.
Nor do I understand why using something that is lighter somehow a negative.........

I don't understand several of your further points either:
-You seem to scoff at the idea of "shot placement." That applies to ANY caliber. A miss is a miss. A superficial shot/wound is just that, it doesn't matter if it is with a 22lr, 9mm, 45 or 155mm. Nor does it matter if the target is a piece of paper, an animal or in a SD situation.
So using an accurate gun, proper training or proper ammunition is critical , regardless of the caliber.
-Proper training will help any shooter. A small female or whatever can shoot just as well as any male. I'm not sure where you are getting those comments from. Go to Camp Perry and watch the various junior teams shoot GREAT scores. Stature and sex have nothing to do with shooting ability. Training does.
-We can just agree to disagree that most of the current realistic testing shows little difference between the calibers performance. Partially due to the advancements in bullet design/manufacturing.
-The 1911 isn't the only pistol available in 45, most if not all current pistols are too. Since you seem to have a distinct hatred for the Glock, ill use it as an example.
Buying a Glock you get: whatever caliber you want, good useable sights, a pistol ready to shoot out of the box- no break in, no tuning, no special magazines. All the accessories you could want. And yes, a good trigger. All for about half the price of a 1911.

The M1911 is a great pistol but it is dated and needs work if you want to carry it in todays world. There are just as good if not better choices for that out there.
If you want a 45.... Great!
If you want a 9mm.... Great!
Neither will let you down as long as you do your part and train with it for whatever you expect it to do.
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 09-16-2020 at 04:26 PM.
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  #32  
Old 09-16-2020, 06:56 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
 
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Gehwehr43,
I assure you, I am quite serious. I have carried 1911s both in and out of uniform since 1974, and competed with them in IPSC for eight years.

And as a Glock Armorer and Instructor, I am well aware of the capabilities of striker fired, polymer pistols. I carry a Glock 22 every day at work, have for over ten years and am not concerned about it letting me down as a handgun - but it is clumsy and hard to shoot compared to a 1911. Fortunately, it is a .40 S&W, but next year our organization is switching to brand new 9MM Glock 19s - the better to keep up with "Modern LE trends" - and qualify the current crop of recruits, who are mostly smaller, weaker, urban and have very low mechanical skills - but they are great with a cell phone.

My point is that much of the pushing of 9MM is entirely do to the fact that most Federal, State and Local Agencies have dropped physical requirements - and now my City has had to hire over double the number of Officers - because they now can never again send less than two Officers to ANYTHING - physical size and ability DO MATTER in Police Work. There are plenty of 5'10"/170lb or bigger women, by the way. It's not about the person's sex - it's about minimum physical stamina and ability to do the job safely.

9MM is now needed because of who we hire - all the "new bullets" justifications are just a smoke screen. The laws of Physics have not changed - twice as much Energy can do twice as much Damage, period. Pretending it does not matter is a lie for a political agenda. And lots of bullets to make up for less skill. Shooting Gelatin has NOTHING TO DO with shooting an animate being who is not a solid block of anything, and proves nothing about effectiveness - only how far a given bullet goes into jell.

I remember carrying a .357 Magnum revolver with two reloads - and never knew anybody who "ran out" of their 18 rounds. It would seem to me that after you drop the first three (two rounds each), your problem is usually solved - the rest have their hands up or are running. And ONE Round of .357 125/1450 is usually enough.

So, do you carry a light on your "Primary Weapon", all the time? Seriously? You can buy several different 1911s with a rail, if you want, or add one for $50 - Recover Tactical takes three minutes, and is surprisingly functional - and reversible.

I agree with you on "Carry what you want/can shoot." But an awful lot we read and hear about is just Modern Marketing 101 - selling something - while the 1911 can still do whatever needs done. I have made one concession to the modern era - I now carry at least two ten round 1911 magazines for reloads. But I doubt I will ever need them. The 1911 is enough - and it's advantages more than make up for any perceived disadvantages. CC
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  #33  
Old 09-16-2020, 09:12 PM
Kestrel4k Kestrel4k is offline
 
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I will say that reading some the comments after that article, really makes me appreciate the intelligent dialogue here on CMP Forums.

I did like the comment about being able to reload .45ACP with black powder if necessary & still having a functional firearm.
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  #34  
Old 09-16-2020, 11:03 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Denver, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
Gehwehr43,
I assure you, I am quite serious. I have carried 1911s both in and out of uniform since 1974, and competed with them in IPSC for eight years.

And as a Glock Armorer and Instructor, I am well aware of the capabilities of striker fired, polymer pistols. I carry a Glock 22 every day at work, have for over ten years and am not concerned about it letting me down as a handgun - but it is clumsy and hard to shoot compared to a 1911. Fortunately, it is a .40 S&W, but next year our organization is switching to brand new 9MM Glock 19s - the better to keep up with "Modern LE trends" - and qualify the current crop of recruits, who are mostly smaller, weaker, urban and have very low mechanical skills - but they are great with a cell phone.

My point is that much of the pushing of 9MM is entirely do to the fact that most Federal, State and Local Agencies have dropped physical requirements - and now my City has had to hire over double the number of Officers - because they now can never again send less than two Officers to ANYTHING - physical size and ability DO MATTER in Police Work. There are plenty of 5'10"/170lb or bigger women, by the way. It's not about the person's sex - it's about minimum physical stamina and ability to do the job safely.

9MM is now needed because of who we hire - all the "new bullets" justifications are just a smoke screen. The laws of Physics have not changed - twice as much Energy can do twice as much Damage, period. Pretending it does not matter is a lie for a political agenda. And lots of bullets to make up for less skill. Shooting Gelatin has NOTHING TO DO with shooting an animate being who is not a solid block of anything, and proves nothing about effectiveness - only how far a given bullet goes into jell.

I remember carrying a .357 Magnum revolver with two reloads - and never knew anybody who "ran out" of their 18 rounds. It would seem to me that after you drop the first three (two rounds each), your problem is usually solved - the rest have their hands up or are running. And ONE Round of .357 125/1450 is usually enough.

So, do you carry a light on your "Primary Weapon", all the time? Seriously? You can buy several different 1911s with a rail, if you want, or add one for $50 - Recover Tactical takes three minutes, and is surprisingly functional - and reversible.

I agree with you on "Carry what you want/can shoot." But an awful lot we read and hear about is just Modern Marketing 101 - selling something - while the 1911 can still do whatever needs done. I have made one concession to the modern era - I now carry at least two ten round 1911 magazines for reloads. But I doubt I will ever need them. The 1911 is enough - and it's advantages more than make up for any perceived disadvantages. CC
Sir:
I appreciate your candor, so I'll do the same.
Your prejudices come thru when you train recruits.
Your negative attitude come thru as well.
You aren't giving your recruits the quality training they deserve.
If you are that $%^& off and negative, retire. You aren't helping anyone.
99% of Officers in the United States carry a polymer striker fired pistol (with a light attached).
They have selected the best pistol for their requirements.
They understand that but for some reason, you refuse to acknowledge that.

Just like you don't seem to recognize the fact that the 9mm cartridge is not a new design. It has been successfully used to great affect for as many decades as the 45 ACP.
That success has nothing to do with the current physical stature of US Police Officers.

If you truly are a Firearms Instructor, I am, to be honest, stunned that I would have to explain or justify the use of weapon mounted lights to you.
So I'll repeat this: "... If you are that $%^& off and negative, retire. You aren't helping anyone....."
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