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  #41  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:19 AM
Don in SC Don in SC is offline
 
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That could do it. It the brass gets to hot it would in effect anneal the whole case. The neck has to be some what soft to expand and seel the chamber but the rest of the brass should have some firmness to it to resist expanding to the point of failure. I wonder how, if ever, we could find out how the Isreali processs their scrap brass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spankybear View Post
I talked with a scrapper here in Ft Lewis WA and they said the brass is run though a "popper" for make sure no live rounds get out. He said it was a giant oven... Maybe the isreali do the same...
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  #42  
Old 07-08-2012, 11:07 AM
HughUno HughUno is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don in SC View Post
Wonder if the Isreali cook their brass to scrap it. If so it could be way to soft to be safe.

. Could be the brass was just reloaded to many times, it does go bad after awhile.
1. This was live surplus ammo commonly sold in the 90's. People immediately started having serious problems including case head failures (like clearly what occured here). There would be no reason to "cook" this ammo because it not ever demilled (as it should have!) and was commonly sold as live surplus ammo (IIRC by Century Arms).

2. Given the facts as described here (plus the pictures) There is almost no other reasonable explanation except bad TZ Israeli ammo (or reloaded brass). This older guy obviously had not gotten the "word" about this ammo/brass and choose to either shoot the original surplus ammo or reload with the brass. Both options were not good.

*frankly, there is so much .06, 7.62, 5.56 brass around that the idea of reloading anything except my own LC, HXP, or USA commercial isn't something I would choose to do. On the other hand, TZ .45 acp ammo/brass is clearly some of the very best ammo/brass for .45 acp ever made.

Last edited by precision40; 07-08-2012 at 07:52 PM.
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  #43  
Old 07-08-2012, 12:09 PM
Eliyahu Eliyahu is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HughUno View Post
1. This was LIVE SURPLUS AMMO commonly sold in the 90's. People IMMEDIATELY started having serious problems including case HEAD failures (like clearly what occured here). There would be no reason to "cook" this ammo because it not every demilled (as it should have!) and was commonly sold as LIVE surplus ammo (IIRC by Century Arms).

2. Given the facts as described here (plus the pictures) There is almost no other reasonable explanation except BAD TZ ISRAELI ammo (or reloaded brass). This older guy obviously had not gotten the "word" about this ammo/brass and choose to either shoot the original surplus ammo or reload with the crappy brass. Both options were NOT good.

*frankly, there is so much .06, 7.62, 5.56 brass around that the idea of reloading anything except my OWN LC, HXP, or USA commercial isn't something I would choose to do. On the other hand, TZ .45 acp ammo/brass is clearly some of the very best ammo/brass for .45 acp ever made.
It was "Paragon Sales" that sold this stuff, I think they sold it 'for component value only' but a lot of gun show resellers sold it as good ammo.
From what I understand, the Israelis sold it as scrap metal, and the importers sold it was acceptable. I have no idea what was used to clean it, but it's also known that most of it was tumbled heavily, possibly with a "Brasso" type cleaner that weakened the brass.

Eli
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  #44  
Old 07-08-2012, 11:10 PM
Calif-Steve Calif-Steve is offline
 
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Slam fire. Send the gun off the Springfield Armory, Inc., they will tell you if it can be saved. Re-loads? High primer in an M14 is death to the rifle.
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  #45  
Old 07-09-2012, 05:45 AM
glocke12 glocke12 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliyahu View Post
It was "Paragon Sales" that sold this stuff, I think they sold it 'for component value only' but a lot of gun show resellers sold it as good ammo.
From what I understand, the Israelis sold it as scrap metal, and the importers sold it was acceptable. I have no idea what was used to clean it, but it's also known that most of it was tumbled heavily, possibly with a "Brasso" type cleaner that weakened the brass.

Eli
I think I bought some of this stuff back in the 90's....Came loose in an ammo can and quite frankly, looked like crap. I think I shot abot 20-30 rounds of it in my than new M1A when I asked myself why am I shooting such crappy looking ammo in such an expensive rifle for.
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  #46  
Old 07-09-2012, 06:56 AM
HughUno HughUno is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve View Post
Slam fire. Send the gun off the Springfield Armory, Inc., they will tell you if it can be saved. Re-loads? High primer in an M14 is death to the rifle.
You are confusing slam fires with out of battery discharge (OOB). A "slam fire" would not damage an M1 or M1A rifle.

1. A slam fire, while possible in an M1 or M1A, cannot happen unless the bolt is fully closed. This is how the weapon was designed. If the bolt is closed, the rifle ain't gonna blow up. A high primer can increase the risk of a slam fire, but would not cause an OOB discharge.

2. If you do have a slam fire, all you have is the round goes bang normally (albeit without a trigger pull). Absolutely nothing bad will happen to the rifle (and nothing bad to anyone else will happen either as long as basic safety, Rule 2, is followed).

3. An out of battery discharge (in an M1A/M1) would have to caused by a defective weapon/part. It would not have anything to do with a primer that was not fully seated (and certainly NOT the brand of primers!). In either rifle (M1 or M1A/M14), the "safety bridge" (see picture below) keeps the firing pin back until it has lost enough momentum to set off the primer prematurely.

Truly blown up/damaged M1/M1As virtually always can be traced back to (or at least best explained by):

A. Defective reload (i.e. case full of pistol powder)
B. Bore obstruction.
C. Complete cartridge case HEAD failure (via defective ammo)

BOLT NOT FULLY CLOSED: (see the firing pin is blocked and fully retracted).



BOLT FULLY CLOSED (rifle could possibly slam fire, but not OOB):

Last edited by precision40; 07-09-2012 at 08:38 AM.
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  #47  
Old 07-09-2012, 08:24 AM
J.R.2009 J.R.2009 is offline
 
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I agree, AIN'T no slam fire. Wonder if the "old man" loads handgun rounds also ?? I'm turning 70 and KNOW I need to double check everything when I set up to do a little reloading. Maybe he goofed up. I'd be a pullin' some rounds down from the same lot and checking.
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  #48  
Old 07-09-2012, 01:09 PM
HughUno HughUno is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.2009 View Post
I agree, AIN'T no slam fire. Wonder if the "old man" loads handgun rounds also ?? I'm turning 70 and KNOW I need to double check everything when I set up to do a little reloading. Maybe he goofed up. I'd be a pullin' some rounds down from the same lot and checking.
You don't have to be 70. A couple weeks back, via a complete brain-fart, I loaded some .45 acp rounds up with too much W-231. Unlike normal, I didn't double check the scales/charge until I was loading up the next batch of 50--yikes! not worth the time or effort trying to "pull" (kinetic whacker) the rounds, so I just sprayed them with red paint, wrapped em up, and trashed them all..
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  #49  
Old 07-10-2012, 12:13 AM
Tired Retired Tired Retired is offline
 
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I have to disagree with one assumption you guys are making about slam fires and out of batteries fires. I can think of one REALISTIC situation where it can occur with a completely healthy weapon.

It can be caused by a single out-of-spec cartridge if the cartridge has both excessive headspace and a high primer. Here is how - a cartridge is stripped out of the mag and forced up the loading ramp by the forward movement of the bolt. Because of the excessive headspace, the cartridge will stop when shoulder hits the chamber wall (datum point). As the cartridge comes to a halt, the bolt is still moving forward since it (the bolt) has not met the breech face. (Yes, I know that at this point the firing pin is being blocked by the bridge.) However, if the primer is ABOVE the base of the cartridge, it is the PRIMER that is in contact with the bolt face. As the bolt continues forward, and the body of the cartridge has stopped, the bolt will exert all of its kentic energy and compress the primer.

At this point, if the raised primer detonates, you will have either a slam fire or an out of battery fire depending on if the bolt has started camming closed or has not reached that point. In this described situation, the discharge is 100% caused by the faulty ammuntion, not the weapon. Hopefully, the weapon will take the brunt of the explosion.

It sometimes amazes me that someone will spend $2,000 or more on a weapon (before scope and extra mags and other fancy, cool toys!) but go as CHEAP as they can with ammo or as LAZY as they can be with their reloads.

Ya know, feeding a kids CHEAP McD meals all the time and allowing him to be LAZY in front of a TV ain't exactly healthy either...

Just my two cents...
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  #50  
Old 07-10-2012, 04:53 AM
HughUno HughUno is offline
 
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Default uhhhh maybe (not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired Retired View Post
I have to disagree with one assumption you guys are making about slam fires and out of batteries fires. I can think of one REALISTIC situation where it can occur with a completely healthy weapon.

It can be caused by a single out-of-spec cartridge if the cartridge has both excessive headspace and a high primer. Here is how - a cartridge is stripped out of the mag and forced up the loading ramp by the forward movement of the bolt. Because of the excessive headspace, the cartridge will stop when shoulder hits the chamber wall (datum point). As the cartridge comes to a halt, the bolt is still moving forward since it (the bolt) has not met the breech face. (Yes, I know that at this point the firing pin is being blocked by the bridge.) However, if the primer is ABOVE the base of the cartridge, it is the PRIMER that is in contact with the bolt face. As the bolt continues forward, and the body of the cartridge has stopped, the bolt will exert all of its kentic energy and compress the primer.

At this point, if the raised primer detonates, you will have either a slam fire or an out of battery fire depending on if the bolt has started camming closed or has not reached that point. In this described situation, the discharge is 100% caused by the faulty ammuntion, not the weapon. Hopefully, the weapon will take the brunt of the explosion.

It sometimes amazes me that someone will spend $2,000 or more on a weapon (before scope and extra mags and other fancy, cool toys!) but go as CHEAP as they can with ammo or as LAZY as they can be with their reloads.

Ya know, feeding a kids CHEAP McD meals all the time and allowing him to be LAZY in front of a TV ain't exactly healthy either...

Just my two cents...
There is a reason why that firing pin is called a firing pin and primers have an anvil.

in this scenario of yours the totally flat bolt face will indeed "compress/push on" the primer .... just like the plunger on my lee hand auto-prime seating tool.."

funny, I have (at times) mashed in primers in my Lee Hand-Auto-Prime with far more force (PSI anyway) than any M1/M14 Bolt and somehow never had any primers actually go off. Not that this is a good idea, and it's not a loaded live round in the Lee unit, but the premise is the same. Heck, the Lee Auto Prime plunger being much smaller than an M1 bolt-face is actually more dangerous! All of us Lee Auto-Prime users have mashed in and even DEFORMED primers, especially LRs in military brass, at one time or the other--thus .. safety glasses recommended.

IIRC it's only a 17 or 18 pound recoil spring on the M1 anyway)

In this scenario of yours, all the bolt is actually going to do is seat/push this primer deeper (and of course, you do have a higher risk of a slamfire once the bolt closes). Not saying an OOB is completely impossible, but it's close..

Heck, you could easily (and safely) recreate this scenario with an oversize/length round/case with just a primer only to see what would happen (let us know).






Last edited by precision40; 07-10-2012 at 08:04 PM.
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