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  #1  
Old 12-23-2012, 12:03 PM
steelap steelap is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North AL
Posts: 5,781
Thumbs up 7.62mm Firearms M14 - And Then A Miracle Occurred

I had 7.62mm Firearms build up a CMP Grade A kit a couple years ago. I finally received my rifle, SN 52204. When trying to fire it, it had issues with loading many different brands of ammo. I checked it for headspace, it did NOT pass the GO gauge. Note: USGI HRA chrome lined barrel.

I contacted Chris, he said to send it back for reaming, but I never got around to it.

A year later I pulled it out of the closet, and tried it out again. Same issues. I tried to reach Chris again, no luck. I tried to find someone local to look at it, no luck (chrome chamber, remember?).

About two months ago I posted on here that I was having issues with the rifle. Rick (Rip/M14) contacted me, and we had several discussions over the phone. I sent the rifle to him for assessment (using FFLs). He then did the following:

1. Floated left bolt lug receiver raceway to compensate for heat treat warping and improper crucible packing at the factory.

2. Deburred inside heel of receiver

3. Sculpted the rear safety lug cut-out in the receiver and immediate area behing it, under the stripper clip guide.

4. Relieved bolt roller impact area at the decelerator rail below the stripper clip guide on top side of cut-out.

5. Relieved barrel ring, right side for right bolt lug clearance.

6. Relieved barrel shroud at three locations for impact problem from improper bolt dimensions.

7. Relieved rotational shoulders in the receiver that were binding the bolts free movement while going to battery.

8. Stoned down sharp ridge at the left receiver lug near the helix cut area wall that joins the lug.

9. Polished the receiver bridge bolt saddle, 60 degree arc cut, and evened it up.

10. Deburred the back right side of the bolt stop window that was interferring with proper bolt stop function.
Would not lie down even at rest when not engaged, and intereferred with the rear of the bolt when in recoil
cycle.

11. Checked flash suppressor alignment.

12. Sculpted proper nose on the bolt and made original bevels that were left out at the factory.

13. Cut the bolt shroud nose back approximately .003 to clearance barrel when in battery.

14. Polished bolt at the rear to clean up previous damage from impacting rough receiver heel.

15. Shortened bolt's rear safety lug for receiver clearance to mate at receiver cut-out.

16. Polished bolt's matching rotational shoulders to mate with receiver shoulders.

17. Polished old extractor and knocked of burrs from previous damage caused by barrel impact. Polished extractor shaft.

18. Lapped bolt and receiver to close gap at the left lug of .003 Total of .0015 off four sides of receiver and bolt.

19. Reamed chamber to 1.632 headspace with carbide reamer.

20. Re-beveled the divider pawl lower at the barrel feed area to clear bolt's cycle.

21. Regreased, zeroed sights to default center, and test fired weapon. Adjusted final setting for sights, front and rear, and set elevation knob to proper number for zero.

He sent it back to me earlier this month. I have taken it to the range twice, and it has performed flawlessly with about six or seven different brands of ammo - both caliber .308 and NATO 7.62x51. Here are a pair of targets, 50 yards, the target is the 50 yard smallbore target:


PPU White box caliber .308


German surplus MEM 7.62x51 NATO

I am both pleased and incredibly grateful to Rip. I can finally enjoy shooting my M14 semi-auto clone.

"Life is Good!"
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  #2  
Old 12-23-2012, 01:33 PM
AndyB AndyB is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 41
Default

This one?



There's a pretty lengthy discussion of this at the M14 forum.

http://m14forum.com/m14/100269-7-62-...ed-issues.html

So that's all that was required to make it work?
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  #3  
Old 12-23-2012, 01:41 PM
AndyB AndyB is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 41
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This was the review I received from a very prominent M14 smith and manufacturer, that I included when I sent this barreled receiver/bolt back to 762mm.

OK, HERE IS WHAT I FOUND. THE RCVR IS 100% MACHINED, WITHOUT DOING A MICROGRAPH ANALYSIS CANNOT TELL IF CAST, I AM ASSUMING GIVING 7.62 THE BENEFIT OF DOUBT THAT IT IS FORGED. IT IS THE POOREST QUALITY JOB I HAVE EVER SEEN DONE. THEY USED A LARGE DEBURRING TUMBLER OR VIBRATING DEBURRER TO CLEAN UP MACHINING BURRS AS A LABOR SAVER, IT TRASHED ALL THE FINE DETAILS.

NOW TO THE NITTY GRITTY, THE RECEIVER IS OUT OF DIMENSION IN MANY PLACES. THE AREA OF CONCERN IS THE LOCKING AREA. THE RIGHT HAND RCVR SLOT PROFILE IS OUT BY .010" TOO NARROW. BBL IS OVER WOUND, THE FACE OF BOLT IS STRIKING BOTTOM OF C/BORE, LOCK LUG PROFILE NOT CORRECT. CANNOT FIT A TRW OR SA BOLT IN EVEN CLOSE.

THE FACE OF BOLT TO FACE OF RCVR DIMENSION IS CORRECT WITH 762 BOLT IN PLACE, THIS IN MY OPINION IS ******** LUCK. I CONSIDER THE RECEIVER UNUSABLE. IT COULD HOWEVER BE MADE TO WORK. FACE OF BBL HOOD AND C/BORE FACE WOULD HAVE TO BE TURNED TO CLEAR BOLT LUGS AND BOLT FACE, SHOULDER OF BBL ROLLED TO REINSTATE CRUSH, AN EXCESSIVE AMOUNT OF LAPPING ON BOLT AND RCVR TO GET HEAD SPACE. AN UN CHROMED BBL WOULD MAKE IT EASIER.

NOW TO THE BOLT, IT IS JUNK. THE LUG FACE PROFILE IS OUT OF PROPER CONTOUR ON BOTH LUGS, THE BOLT SUPPORT BEARING DIAMETER SURFACES ARE NONE EXISTENT! THAT PUTS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF ASYMMETRICAL STRESS ON BOLT LUGS, ROLLER AND OP ROD DURING UNLOCKING PROCESS. THE RADIUS AT BASE OF ROLLER STUD IS NONE EXISTENT SUBJECTING IT TO HEAT TREAT AND MECHANICAL FAILURE. AGAIN JUNK. SEND IT BACK AND TELL HIM YOU WANT A REPLACEMENT RCVR ASSY.
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  #4  
Old 12-23-2012, 02:00 PM
steelap steelap is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North AL
Posts: 5,781
Default

Looks like I may have more issues than I thought - although Rip did a lot of work on it.

Should I pull this thread - I emailed RickB for his input - now I don't know what to think (or do)?

Not knowing anything about m14s I can't tell if Rip made it safe or if I'm still screwed.

If Rip has corrected the issues - and I'm sure I'll talk to him - and he is a very straight shooting guy - then I'm fine. If not ....

Fortunately it's just a rifle - and even at that just a receiver and bolt. It is NOT a piece of history. In worst case - if I de-mil the receiver and bolt - I'm just out money.

"Life is Good!"
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  #5  
Old 12-23-2012, 02:18 PM
CaptainMagic CaptainMagic is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 654
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelap View Post
I had 7.62mm Firearms build up a CMP Grade A kit a couple years ago. I finally received my rifle, SN 52204. When trying to fire it, it had issues with loading many different brands of ammo. I checked it for headspace, it did NOT pass the GO gauge. Note: USGI HRA chrome lined barrel.

I contacted Chris, he said to send it back for reaming, but I never got around to it.

A year later I pulled it out of the closet, and tried it out again. Same issues. I tried to reach Chris again, no luck. I tried to find someone local to look at it, no luck (chrome chamber, remember?).

About two months ago I posted on here that I was having issues with the rifle. Rick (Rip/M14) contacted me, and we had several discussions over the phone. I sent the rifle to him for assessment (using FFLs). He then did the following:

1. Floated left bolt lug receiver raceway to compensate for heat treat warping and improper crucible packing at the factory.

2. Deburred inside heel of receiver

3. Sculpted the rear safety lug cut-out in the receiver and immediate area behing it, under the stripper clip guide.

4. Relieved bolt roller impact area at the decelerator rail below the stripper clip guide on top side of cut-out.

5. Relieved barrel ring, right side for right bolt lug clearance.

6. Relieved barrel shroud at three locations for impact problem from improper bolt dimensions.

7. Relieved rotational shoulders in the receiver that were binding the bolts free movement while going to battery.

8. Stoned down sharp ridge at the left receiver lug near the helix cut area wall that joins the lug.

9. Polished the receiver bridge bolt saddle, 60 degree arc cut, and evened it up.

10. Deburred the back right side of the bolt stop window that was interferring with proper bolt stop function.
Would not lie down even at rest when not engaged, and intereferred with the rear of the bolt when in recoil
cycle.

11. Checked flash suppressor alignment.

12. Sculpted proper nose on the bolt and made original bevels that were left out at the factory.

13. Cut the bolt shroud nose back approximately .003 to clearance barrel when in battery.

14. Polished bolt at the rear to clean up previous damage from impacting rough receiver heel.

15. Shortened bolt's rear safety lug for receiver clearance to mate at receiver cut-out.

16. Polished bolt's matching rotational shoulders to mate with receiver shoulders.

17. Polished old extractor and knocked of burrs from previous damage caused by barrel impact. Polished extractor shaft.

18. Lapped bolt and receiver to close gap at the left lug of .003 Total of .0015 off four sides of receiver and bolt.

19. Reamed chamber to 1.632 headspace with carbide reamer.

20. Re-beveled the divider pawl lower at the barrel feed area to clear bolt's cycle.

21. Regreased, zeroed sights to default center, and test fired weapon. Adjusted final setting for sights, front and rear, and set elevation knob to proper number for zero.

He sent it back to me earlier this month. I have taken it to the range twice, and it has performed flawlessly with about six or seven different brands of ammo - both caliber .308 and NATO 7.62x51. Here are a pair of targets, 50 yards, the target is the 50 yard smallbore target:


PPU White box caliber .308


German surplus MEM 7.62x51 NATO

I am both pleased and incredibly grateful to Rip. I can finally enjoy shooting my M14 semi-auto clone.

"Life is Good!"

I wouldn't worry a bit about firing the rifle. You have a situation where one person made the issues seem overblown and the prior person who had it also had a person seemingly make the issues overblown. Making other peoples work seem terrible is a common theme in the M14 world and M14 aficionados seem to fall for the trap. I'm sure that the rifle needed the headspace fixed and that the bolt stop needed addressing but the rest is just window dressing to make some smith feel self important.

I have some respect for some of the M14 smiths out there but they all do a lot of disagreeing with each other when you send them a job to do. It is so bad that I don't respect any of them entirely. You could literally send an M1A on a national tour of Smiths, get it back from each one, and you would have a litany of things wrong that would lead you to believe you sent a different rifle to each Smith. Something is wrong with these people. I won't even get into the price difference each quote from each Smith would have. It's a disgrace.
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  #6  
Old 12-23-2012, 02:24 PM
CaptainMagic CaptainMagic is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 654
Default Pulling the thread

Please don't pull the thread. People need to see this nonsense and how so many people could disagree with the same stupid rifle. One guy says it will blow up and isn't safe to shoot, the next says you have a lot of burrs and headspace fixed so you're now good to go, the next guy will say you need your bolt lapped and a new barrel. Seriously, people need to quit falling for this nonsense!

Get good headspace, check your brass, shoot the thing.
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  #7  
Old 12-23-2012, 02:48 PM
steelap steelap is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North AL
Posts: 5,781
Default

Thread not being pulled for now.

I would like to know where, other than the bolt lugs, are the failure points affecting safety on an M14. Also any suggestions as to which NDT (nondestructive testing) techniques could be used for monitoring the potential failure areas. For example, with respect to the bolt lugs, they could be magnetic particle checked periodically for cracks, and the bolt replaced prior to failure. The headspace, which is in part a function of the bolt lugs, can be checked for gradual increase. An increase in headspace, with a USGI barrel, might indicate a bolt issue.

Although this seems to be turning painful, and away form the initial joy of a functioning rifle, I may be again overreacting.

"Life is Good!"
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  #8  
Old 12-23-2012, 03:10 PM
CaptainMagic CaptainMagic is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZvenoMan View Post
CaptainMagic, I understand what you are saying, and while I'm far from an M14 expert, I agree that some of those items on the list may be more fine tuning (match conditioning) that may be above and beyond what is necessary or normal on a stock receiver. But the fact that steelap received a receiver that was not functioning as advertised is a problem. I don't think it was sold as an "80% receiver" like you get the AR15 castings and 15 minutes with a drill press and a dremel you have a functioning receiver (yeah, right!). And to find that AndyB had it prior, and also had problems?

I can understand a defective part going out. When it comes back, I can see fixing it and selling it again (maybe as a "2nd", or "refurb"?). But it was sent back out and still didn't work.
I wonder if any work was done to repair it before steelap got it?
Consider this:
-If a receiver is sent out and malfunctions, that is an issue, with some liability. It happens, we hope manufacturers have a QC process in place to minimize it, but perfection is a goal rarely reached (hence SAI's lifetime warranty, etc).
-If a receiver malfunctions and during any liability investigation a trail, including the serial number (photos exist forever on the interweb) shows a known defect was communicated to the manufacturer, it becomes clear the manufacturer knew there was a problem and either failed to correct it, or misrepresented what they knew to be a problem, that changes the issue considerably.

"Stuff happens"; if AndyB was the first recipient thin "it happened" to him (sorry!). But it was knowingly passed to steelap, so the stuff was dumped on him, so to speak.

My first xxxx pistol (manufacturer doesn't even matter) malfunctioned, and when I contacted them, they fixed it with such integrity and humility I lost no sleep (that was in 1987 or so; I have owned half a dozen xxxx pistols since then). Big difference.

Just saying.....
JH
I agree with you in spirit Sir but have you noticed how two different "smiths" have two completely different sets of issues with the receiver? Send it to a third "smith" and you'll get a new list. At some point this comes down to the law of merchantability. This means that the thing simply has to work as advertised. It did not work and wouldn't even close on a bolt! Not closing on a bolt is an issues as well as the headspace and bolt stop. There may be a fourth item that causes the receiver not to work as well but let's keep this objective. All this nonsense about how graceful the deburring is or if the bolt is lapped is just that. Then compounding all this with other nonsense by people who are pretending to know about metallurgy is turning this receiver into something it is not.

I highly doubt that this receiver is a complete loss and rather believe that some clearance for the bolt to close, getting it to headspace, fixing the bolt stop, is all that was needed. All this other crap is just nonsense in an effort for some to sound smart. These guys are trying to come off like some sort of rocket scientists meticulously going over these rifles in their white lab coats, it's a darn joke.

Despite past disagreements with M14 (RIP), at least his list is the least egregious and has the lesser degree of self importance. Really these M14 guys/smiths need to stop this crap, it's embarrassing.
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  #9  
Old 12-23-2012, 03:14 PM
CaptainMagic CaptainMagic is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 654
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelap View Post
Thread not being pulled for now.

I would like to know where, other than the bolt lugs, are the failure points affecting safety on an M14. Also any suggestions as to which NDT (nondestructive testing) techniques could be used for monitoring the potential failure areas. For example, with respect to the bolt lugs, they could be magnetic particle checked periodically for cracks, and the bolt replaced prior to failure. The headspace, which is in part a function of the bolt lugs, can be checked for gradual increase. An increase in headspace, with a USGI barrel, might indicate a bolt issue.

Although this seems to be turning painful, and away form the initial joy of a functioning rifle, I may be again overreacting.

"Life is Good!"
You are overreacting

Magnetic particle checking???? Come on man.
Check your headspace, look for cracks, look at your brass. You would do yourself much better, health wise, not going out during lightning storms.
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  #10  
Old 12-23-2012, 03:31 PM
steelap steelap is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North AL
Posts: 5,781
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainMagic View Post
You are overreacting

Magnetic particle checking???? Come on man.
Check your headspace, look for cracks, look at your brass. You would do yourself much better, health wise, not going out during lightning storms.
Three good suggestions:

1. Check headspace (mentioned that)

2. Look for cracks (thought that mag particle would pick up earlier, but still a good idea)

3. Look at brass - what should I look for when checking the brass? Bulges, striations, blown primers?

I realize that too much NDT would be an over-reaction - but this might turn into a science fair project .

"Life is Good!"
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