Go Back   CMP Forums > CMP Sales > M1 Carbine
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:39 PM
luigi luigi is online now
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: AR
Posts: 426
Default

I don't know how a carbine could be 100% "original"? Most of the original manufacturers did not make "all" the parts and many parts were sent to other manufacturers. Not sure if any one manufacture made all the parts for their newly built carbines?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:44 PM
GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 is online now
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 1,353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigi View Post
I don't know how a carbine could be 100% "original"? Most of the original manufacturers did not make "all" the parts and many parts were sent to other manufacturers. Not sure if any one manufacture made all the parts for their newly built carbines?
A carbine is 100% original if it carries the same parts it left the factory with when accepted by the government.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:48 PM
meplat meplat is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 3,872
Default

"Original" means as it left the factory when originally manufactured, regardless of whether all its parts were made by a single manufacturer or not. Not dyed purple or engraved or ...

No wartime carbine manufacturer made all the parts required for their own "original" carbine.

In fact, one carbine manufacturer even made NO parts assembled into some of their "original" carbines.

That's why when you hear "all matching" wrt some carbine you're interested in, RUN!

Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:00 PM
luigi luigi is online now
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: AR
Posts: 426
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by meplat View Post
"Original" means as it left the factory when originally manufactured, regardless of whether all its parts were made by a single manufacturer or not. Not dyed purple or engraved or ...

No wartime carbine manufacturer made all the parts required for their own "original" carbine.

In fact, one carbine manufacturer even made NO parts assembled into some of their "original" carbines.

That's why when you hear "all matching" wrt some carbine you're interested in, RUN!

Thanks Meplat...that's is what I was getting at! When it left the factory new it would be hard to tell what parts from other mfg's were on that carbine!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:03 PM
vagrant vagrant is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 797
Default

Only if you didn't know anything about them. Or if you were trying to hump someone's leg in a sale of a bogus Carbine.
__________________
People, use adverbs please. CORRECT: Do it quickly. INCORRECT: Do it quick. You don't say, "Go there immediate", do you?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-28-2020, 03:48 AM
Milsurp Collector Milsurp Collector is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigi View Post
I don't know how a carbine could be 100% "original"? Most of the original manufacturers did not make "all" the parts and many parts were sent to other manufacturers. Not sure if any one manufacture made all the parts for their newly built carbines?
Quote:
Originally Posted by luigi View Post
Thanks Meplat...that's is what I was getting at! When it left the factory new it would be hard to tell what parts from other mfg's were on that carbine!
That really isn't correct. Which parts would be "correct" for a particular carbine are fairly well understood. While no prime contractor made all of the parts for their carbines, they all used subcontractors to varying degrees - Underwood made the highest percentage of their own parts and Quality HMC the lowest - the parts were marked to identify both the company that made them and the prime contractor they were intended for.

For example, this is an original late war Inland carbine:




The hammer is marked I-I Inland Mfg. Div. for Inland
The sear is marked X.I. Robert Bobbins Co. for Inland
The trigger is marked R.I. Reece Buttonhole for Inland


E.I. Eaton-Pond Co. for Inland


PI Packard Mfg. Co. for Inland


A.I. Dayton Racquet for Inland


The extractor is marked W.I. Wadsworth Watch Case for Inland
The firing pin is marked I-I Inland Mfg. Div. for Inland


PI Packard Mfg. Co. for Inland



Stock and handguard marked OI S.E. Overton Mfg. Co. for Inland

Yes, sometimes parts were transferred from one subcontractor or prime contractor to another prime contractor to eliminate bottlenecks or shortages to keep production going, but the parts transfers weren't random or helter skelter and are fairly well documented. Many if not most of them are listed in the War Baby! books and in the Carbine Club newsletters. For example, on 1-21-1943 3,000 sears were transferred from Inland to Underwood. So it is possible an original Underwood carbine made during that time could have a sear that is marked for Inland. On 5-20-1943 500 operating slides were transferred from Rock-Ola to National Postal Meter, so an original NPM carbine made around that time could have an operating slide marked for Rock-Ola.

By studying known original carbines, which part markings are typically found on carbines made by a particular prime contractor in a particular serial number range has been compiled and recorded.

An original or "corrected" or counterfeit "original" carbine will have a collection of parts that conform to the known markings. An honest rebuilt carbine will have a hodgepodge mix of parts.

Last edited by Milsurp Collector; 01-28-2020 at 05:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-28-2020, 07:48 AM
luigi luigi is online now
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: AR
Posts: 426
Default

Milsurp Collector,

Then a ordinary Joe buying a carbine today would need to have the "factory documents" to determine what parts were in his S/N carbine when it was made?
I have War Baby but did not know if it had all the serial number information to determine the ID of the parts for "Originality"?

Research....research....research!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-28-2020, 08:09 AM
vagrant vagrant is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 797
Default

He wouldn't need the factory documents. He just needs to be able to recognize the alphabet. Almost every Carbine part is marked and most correlate to the make of the Carbine. The very few parts that aren't marked wouldn't account for much of a percentage.

However if the ordinary Joe has an arsenal rebuilt Carbine, he wouldn't know how to fake it into 'bring back' state to gouge a trusting Joe Buyer without factory docs.
__________________
People, use adverbs please. CORRECT: Do it quickly. INCORRECT: Do it quick. You don't say, "Go there immediate", do you?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:08 AM
TwoGunChuck TwoGunChuck is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 218
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vagrant View Post
However if the ordinary Joe has an arsenal rebuilt Carbine, he wouldn't know how to fake it into 'bring back' state to gouge a trusting Joe Buyer without factory docs.
Right on that, which is why I don't try it. One problem is that things like War Baby are not exhaustive, and Ruth notes that. Knowledgeable people (and that does not include me) here or at the Carbine Club are a good source. I wondered if the POB front sight on my likely unmolested QHMC was really original to the carbine. Ruth doesn't list it for QHMC, but I found a discussion thread here that says it is, and I'll trust that. So I imagine some people swap out truly original parts in a quest for originality, and buyers freak out at any imagined deviation from it. [Edit] Or parts that while marked for the manufacturer make no sense, like the SG-marked M2 trigger housing on the 1943 SG M1 carbine I bought 34 years ago in Minneapolis.[end edit]

I will say that I swapped out ugly FAT marked M2 stocks on the CMP carbines I got in 2008 for used stocks (none pristine) that match the manufacturer and date of the carbine. See no harm in that. If I ever sell these, I will reveal that and give the buyer a discount if he wants the M2 stock (saved them all) instead. Matter of fact I have documented this so that when I croak, my kids won't be deceived, either.

Last edited by TwoGunChuck; 01-28-2020 at 10:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-28-2020, 11:57 AM
Milsurp Collector Milsurp Collector is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigi View Post
Milsurp Collector,

Then a ordinary Joe buying a carbine today would need to have the "factory documents" to determine what parts were in his S/N carbine when it was made?
No factory documents needed. A lot of people use Reisch https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Carbines-.../dp/1882391543 but it gives only general information. The best sources by far are the back issues of the Carbine Club newsletters http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/...topic4084.html
There is a wealth of information in there.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:14 PM.