Go Back   CMP Forums > CMP Sales > CMP Bolt Action Rifles
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 05-01-2021, 07:19 AM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,067
Default

Fine point: The elevated pressures from firing an 8mm cartridge in a 30-06 result from the chamber neck constricting the case neck onto the bullet, effectively stopping the bullet from being released. Firing an oversized bullet into a slightly smaller bore simply swages the bullet to bore diameter and requires only a few thousand lbs pressure. It is usually rather difficult to chamber 8mm Mauser cartridges into a 30-06, but it can be done. I once managed it, fortunately with a cast lead bullet load. Result or firing was unremarkable. Shooters of old military (and Ruger 7.62x39mm) rifles know that bullet diameters and bore sizes vary quite a bit. The standard test is to try an unfired bullet into the neck of a fired case--minimal resistance indicates a safe combination. Following up on this; generally the family of .309-.312 sized bullets can be used in .30 cal rifles. I do this routinely, but would mention that all such loads are low to moderate, for 100-200 yard shooting. Might also mention that the slightly oversize bullets are worth trying in very worn bores as an alternative to rebarreling... Good Shooting. .....
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-03-2021, 03:47 PM
smag smag is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Clarksville, TN
Posts: 317
Default

My buddy has a 1903 rec ring that blew off still with the serial number in tact. It was way into 1.0 mil range. Joe blew most know doubt with snow or mud in them after 800K.

Just picked up a USMC 811,xxx with hatcher hole, 41 usmc barrel and would have no issue shooting 178's out of it. Guys been shooting customs out west for elk with low numbers and 180's forever. Kinda like russian roulette though. Little snow in barrel and you may have an issue.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-12-2021, 04:23 PM
dewegner dewegner is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alaska
Posts: 103
Default yes

Snow or water**even in small amounts will at best ruin the barrel, hence all the ringed barrels CMP had in M1 Carbines. I just threw away a ringed M1 barrel, (about 1 inch from the muzzle) that otherwise was near new. Some one obviously shot it with water in the end.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-12-2021, 07:32 PM
smag smag is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Clarksville, TN
Posts: 317
Default

Or stuck barrel into water and shot it.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-17-2021, 01:53 AM
Atoz Atoz is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 58
Default

This may be in Hatchers notes but I'm wondering if the competition was benchmarked.

Since the '03 was derived from the Mauser 98 and we paid a royalty for use of some of Mauser's designs, was there any investigation of the material and process used in the the Mauser receiver and bolt? Did Mauser have similar failures due to imprecise process controls that may have been common at that time? I believe chamber pressures are similar for the military loadings of 8x57 and 30-06.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-17-2021, 02:39 AM
Fenris_Bane Fenris_Bane is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atoz View Post
This may be in Hatchers notes but I'm wondering if the competition was benchmarked.

Since the '03 was derived from the Mauser 98 and we paid a royalty for use of some of Mauser's designs, was there any investigation of the material and process used in the the Mauser receiver and bolt? Did Mauser have similar failures due to imprecise process controls that may have been common at that time? I believe chamber pressures are similar for the military loadings of 8x57 and 30-06.
If you shoot a 8mm Mauser out of a Mauser, the same chamber pressure as shooting a 30-06 out of a 30-06.

The problem of trying to shoot an 8mm Mauser out of a 30-06. It will result in a higher pressure because you are trying to force an oversized bullet down the smaller bore. This results in a greater force to move the bullet.

Also, the 8mm Mauser is slightly shorter. The case length is 2.4" and the neck down starts 1.8273" from the rim. The 30-06 case length is 2.494 and the neck starts 1.9480" from the rim. The cartridge is not resting on the neck budge, but on the larger bullet.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-17-2021, 06:58 AM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenris_Bane View Post
If you shoot a 8mm Mauser out of a Mauser, the same chamber pressure as shooting a 30-06 out of a 30-06.

The problem of trying to shoot an 8mm Mauser out of a 30-06. It will result in a higher pressure because you are trying to force an oversized bullet down the smaller bore. This results in a greater force to move the bullet.

Also, the 8mm Mauser is slightly shorter. The case length is 2.4" and the neck down starts 1.8273" from the rim. The 30-06 case length is 2.494 and the neck starts 1.9480" from the rim. The cartridge is not resting on the neck budge, but on the larger bullet.
Well: I suggest that anyone with an interest in this matter simply test chamber an unbulleted or (bulleted--if you can) 8x57mm mauser case into a 30-06 chamber. The top portion of the 8mm case neck will be swaged from it's diameter of .347" down to the 30-06 chamber neck dimension of around .340-.342" This diameter is far too small to accept the typical 8mm cartridge neck (.349") and the bullet will be effectively crimped into the case neck. This is the major cause for the excessive pressure. The larger bullet being forced through the 30-06 forcing cone comes later and is relatively innocuous with the disaster already underway. I have not blown up a 30-06 but I have seen the effect of "neck crimping" .223 rounds excessively. A friend, new to reloading, used a FL .223 die to reduce excessively loose necked ammo. Even without the chamber neck impingement, he destroyed two AR15 bolts and one receiver, clearly demonstrating the pressure effects possible. While the 8mm in 30-06 problem is widely known, it is helpful to understand what actually happens. Good Shooting. ....
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-17-2021, 03:48 PM
John Beard John Beard is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 3,546
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atoz View Post
This may be in Hatchers notes but I'm wondering if the competition was benchmarked.

Since the '03 was derived from the Mauser 98 and we paid a royalty for use of some of Mauser's designs, was there any investigation of the material and process used in the the Mauser receiver and bolt? Did Mauser have similar failures due to imprecise process controls that may have been common at that time? I believe chamber pressures are similar for the military loadings of 8x57 and 30-06.
The Springfield M1903 rifle design evolved from the Krag rifle design, not the Mauser 98. If you study the two designs carefully, you will observe very significant differences. And for those reasons, we paid no royalties.

I will refrain from answering your remaining questions to avoid igniting controversy.

J.B.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-17-2021, 04:28 PM
Craftsman Craftsman is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 7,390
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Beard View Post
The Springfield M1903 rifle design evolved from the Krag rifle design, not the Mauser 98. If you study the two designs carefully, you will observe very significant differences. And for those reasons, we paid no royalties.

I will refrain from answering your remaining questions to avoid igniting controversy.

J.B.
Mr Beard, I hope you write a book on the Springfield 03s someday!
With your many decades of acquired knowledge, some of which I have no doubt would be the first time seen in print.
I know I'll be in a long line who want a copy!!!
Thank you for sharing your treasure-trove of long forgotten info and details on important US military bolt rifles.
And you gave me specific, informative & insightful info on a CMP SC 03A3 I received via mail order over 10 years ago. Thank you, again.
__________________
Grandfathers Dwight & Percy- Both WWI US Army, Tank Corps & Corps of Engineers
Uncle Colby- WWII US Army Infantry - European Theater / Battle of the Bulge
Dad - US Army Infantry, Stateside - 1954-1956

VFW Patriots Circle Member
NRA Life Member
PMRPC - CMP/GSM Rifle Match Chairman
GSM Master Instructor
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-17-2021, 07:34 PM
Rick the Librarian Rick the Librarian is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NW Washington State
Posts: 7,444
Default

With the numbers of new collectors shooters, I often hear the story that we "stole" the design of the M1903 from the Germans and with me, it has assumed the matter of being a "pet peeve."

1) Shortly after the M1903 went in production, the U.S. Army's Chief of Ordnance wrote to the Mauser firm, stating that some features, mainly having to to with the clips, may have been covered by Mauser patents. Mauser's U.S. representatives examined the patients.

2) After some months of discussions, which author Clark Campbell said, was handled in a "spirit of mutual trust and fair play", it was decided that the U.S. would pay 75 cents per rifle and 50 cents per 1000 clips, until a total of $200,000 had been reached, which happened in July, 1909.

3) Later in 1903 the U.S. Ordnance Branch was taken to task by another German company, Deutsches Waffen und Munitionsfabrik, who claimed that the new M1906 spitzer bullet adopted by the U.S. Army violated their patients. Pointing out that the U.S. had initiated work on a spitzer-type bullet as early as 1894, they rejected the claims of DWM and resisted further efforts at negotiation.

4) By the time the lawsuit reached the courts, it was 1914 and World War I had started and the lawsuit was set aside. In 1917, the German patent was seized by U.S. Government.

5) After the end of the war, it was decided that, while the German patent claim had no basis, the seizure of the patent in 1917 was illegal. As a result, the U.S. Government had to pay DWM $300,000, plus $112,000 interest.
__________________
"We make men without chests and expect from them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst."
--C.S. Lewis
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:18 AM.