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  #11  
Old Yesterday, 11:23 PM
mrhunt14 mrhunt14 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
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I will send a FOIA to Albany with my serial number and see if it returns anything. My CMP 1911a1 has a rebuild marking of A 1 80
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  #12  
Old Today, 08:53 AM
cplnorton cplnorton is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
Yes...… Crane is an interesting part in all this...…

Cpl Norton:
What have you found out specifically about the Crane/ it's markings or handling of serial number lists?

I seem to remember a thread about a FOIA on a 1911 that we discussed.
In it, the pistol "flowed" thru Crane...………
My question would be is what they did with it (did THEY rebuild it?? or were they simply "passers-on" or simply a storage facility??)

What is your understanding of what Crane did/does?

As Lapdog stated, Crane was the manager. I have known for a while that they have kept serial logs of Marine Weapons since at least the mid 70's. Now what is not clear is if they ever had physical custody of some of these weapons or the records only show the transfer of records basically. I've seen for instance RIA with the Army back in the day was an active keeper of serial lists before it closed. Even though some records show RIA and make it appear they had physical inventory it was only RIA was keeping serial lists. My hunch is Crane is the same way and it somewhat misleading. But talking with many people at Crane, I have never received a clear answer. Also I've sort of got contradicting info to be honest on this.


Also.....and I'm not disagreeing with you, simply clarifying a comment you made above:

So for reasons unknown the "A-date" has been found on 1911's and took the place of the "OA-date" found on M1 Garands?
Even though they are both Albany rebuilds? Correct?

Yes they are believed to be both Albany, but of different rebuild eras. So far as I know an electropenciled OA rebuild M1911A1 has not shown up. The 0A rebuilds I know of are all M14's and an earlier date than the A stamped pistols. They are around 1970 +/- and do not show up on the Garands as the Garands ended in 1967. It appears the policy of the markings changed over the years. But they do not cross over on each other. They are distinct time frames. For instance:

1) 0-65 to 0-67 Garands only

2) 0-68 I have seen a couple M1911A1's with just the 0-68. I have one.

3) 0A or 0B 70 +/- only M14 heels. I have not seen any M1911a1's with this unless some came out of the cmp that I haven't seen.

4) A Month Year rebuilds, which seem to be the late 70's, early 80's. These are stamped and not electropenciled.

5) 0B-XX M1911A1 rebuilds, these are eletropenciled and not stamped. These seem to be the same time frame as the A Month Year stamped

It appears they only marked them overhauled and the year till 1968. Then 1969/70 there was a policy change to mark them with the A or B for Albany or Barstow.


Did you find any indication that these reflected a different source?
What I mean is could the "A-date" mean it was a contract of say, Air Force 1911's they worked on? And if found, a "OA-date" might mean a Marine pistol was worked on? When you ran the "A-date" ones, what was the origin of the pistols?

Of the A date ones I ran, they showed being sent to Albany a few months before the date stamped on pistol. So it appeared they were being surveyed and sent in for rebuild on the month and year stamped on them.


I assume "all that" has been lost in the decades and endless work of all involved?
And like wise the use of same stamps could very well have different meanings over time...……

This is entirely possible. I have for sure found evidence at the Archives of the same markings meaning different things in different eras. My honest feelings are these M1911 markings are pretty cut and dry, but I will never say I couldn't be wrong. I've been wrong before. ...………
Now one thing interesting to note. This summer I made acquaintances with a Marine Armorer who travels a lot for the Marines. I don't want to tell too much about him as I don't think what he told me would get him in trouble, but the Corps can be funny. But when I talked to him he said he still sees some M1911's in some base armories. There are not a lot anymore but he still sees them. He also is a researcher of this stuff and follows some of the forums so he keeps a look out for rebuild marks and identifiers.

But I asked him about the A Month year and the 0B markings. He actually laughed and said he had seen our posts on them, and he said he has seen quite a few.

I thought of asking him for serials and pics, but figured it better not to put him in that spot. But this was the first confirmation I have seen of a Marine saying he saw them in the Marine Corps.

I should note though, he said he did see some random Army rebuild marks too. He said he saw some RIA's and I forget the other one he said.

But he said he had for sure seen the A stamped and 0B electropenciled in Marine inventory.

Last edited by cplnorton; Today at 08:58 AM.
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  #13  
Old Today, 09:17 AM
Logdog Logdog is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Mandeville LA
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When the M9's came in(1987), I was S-4 for 24th MEU(SOC). We packed up the HQ M1911a1 and shipped them to the next echelon(3RD) for action. Our Force Recon det retained upgraded M1911A1 for HRT use. The upgraded pistols were modified by Weapons Training Bn at Quantico and shipped to our HQ. The last time I saw M1911A1 as issued was Desert Storm. The reserves coming in all had .45's complicating ammo issue as we had M9's. Recon maintained the .45's and still retains a variation. Don't be surprised if nothing comes of the FOIA, files are kept for 3 years then disposed of. The rebuild actions were done 40 years ago so well past disposal criteria. Crane is the best shot as any missing weapons on an inventory would cause the file to be retained for investigative reasons, even then it is ancient history so probably destroyed.
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  #14  
Old Today, 11:14 AM
Jeremy2171 Jeremy2171 is offline
 
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Cplnorton has it pretty much covered.

Initially there was no marking to differentiate Albany or Barstow. I've seen the OA/B markings on M79s and M2HBs from the late 60s as well as M14s


Looks like when they started doing rebuilds again Albany just went with "A"
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  #15  
Old Today, 12:35 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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CplNorton:
"......Of the A date ones I ran, they showed being sent to Albany a few months before the date stamped on pistol. So it appeared they were being surveyed and sent in for rebuild on the month and year stamped on them....."

One last question, maybe...
So you've mentioned these several times.
But my question is where did the documents say they (the 1911's) came from PRIOR to them going to Albany?
So they were sent to Albany from where?


"....I assume "all that" has been lost in the decades and endless work of all involved?
And like wise the use of same stamps could very well have different meanings over time...

This is entirely possible. I have for sure found evidence at the Archives of the same markings meaning different things in different eras. My honest feelings are these M1911 markings are pretty cut and dry, but I will never say I couldn't be wrong. I've been wrong before. ..."



What I was referring to was the finding the "original owners" of the 1911. So in all this it would be, for all intents and purposes, impossible to find out whether a 1911 was a "Marine" or "Air Force" etc pistol. You've found documentation of so much moving back/forth between Services of these that short of specific documentation, you can't say much more than it was rebuildt by Albany.
So yes, you have a "A-date" pistol, that was rebuildt by Albany.
But who/how it was sent there is anybody's guess.... ??

So to be "conservative" if you are looking at a "A-date" 1911 the best you can say is it was rebuildt by them but not that it is a "Marine" pistol, barring some other information....



Oh, no I'm quite certain that many more people besides the Marine you spoke to are laughing about all this.....
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Last edited by Gewehr43; Today at 02:42 PM.
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  #16  
Old Today, 12:48 PM
Jeremy2171 Jeremy2171 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
CplNorton:
"......Of the A date ones I ran, they showed being sent to Albany a few months before the date stamped on pistol. So it appeared they were being surveyed and sent in for rebuild on the month and year stamped on them...….."

One last question, maybe...……
So you've mentioned these several times.
But my question is where did the documents say they (the 1911's) came from PRIOR to them going to Albany?
So they were sent to Albany from where?


"...….I assume "all that" has been lost in the decades and endless work of all involved?
And like wise the use of same stamps could very well have different meanings over time...……

This is entirely possible. I have for sure found evidence at the Archives of the same markings meaning different things in different eras. My honest feelings are these M1911 markings are pretty cut and dry, but I will never say I couldn't be wrong. I've been wrong before. ...………"



What I was referring to was the finding the "original owners" of the 1911. So in all this it would be, for all intents and purposes, impossible to find out whether a 1911 was a "Marine" or "Air Force" etc pistol. You've found documentation of so much moving back/forth between Services of these that short of specific documentation, you can't say much more than it was rebuildt by Albany.
So yes, you have a "A-date" pistol, that was rebuildt by Albany.
But who/how it was sent there is anybody's guess...….

So to be "conservative" if you are looking at a "A-date" 1911 the best you can say is it was rebuildt by them but not that it is a "Marine" pistol, barring some other information...….



Oh, no I'm quite certain that many more people besides the Marine you spoke to are laughing about all this...…..
As far as the records are concerned...they can be tracked via Rock Island all the way to about 1974 when ALL serialized weapons had to be accounted for by location.

So you can "easily" (with a FOIA) confirm a USGI firearms location and travels from 1974 to release from TO the CMP...CMP would have to tell you when THEY released it.

hope that helps..

PS if it was rebuilt at a USMC center then it was USMC property....
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