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  #31  
Old 04-12-2021, 11:59 AM
jason60chev jason60chev is offline
 
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I think they should be allowed, because they were legitimate conversions
used for a NATO country, chambered in a NATO cartridge, during the Cold War era. And if the M1Ds are allowed, then the Italian TIPO-2 conversions should be allowed for the Garand match.

But, it's their matches and their rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWOhio View Post
As I read the Vintage Sniper rules, the M1D Tipo 2 rifles are not eligible for CMP Vintage Sniper because the rules specify 30'06 for Garand.

It seems the Italian Tipo 2 rifles were only recently "discovered" by the Garand world. Since the 7.62 NATO rifles were officially used by the Italians, I'd think they should be allowed in competition next rules revision.

From what I have read, 7.62 may have a small accuracy edge over 30'06, but I wouldn't think it would be enough to really alter the competitive landscape.

What are the odds they will be added to the approved equipment list?
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  #32  
Old 04-13-2021, 12:42 PM
mnhusker mnhusker is offline
 
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Location: Minnesota
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The thing in our advantage (those with 7.62 Breda Snipers) is that the CMP has not had much luck getting semi auto snipers to shoot in the Vintage Matches, despite lowering the medal scores for this group compared to the bolt rifle scores for medal achievement.

So once everyone gets their rifles, if enough of us send in enquiring emails to the CMP rules committee, the respond favorably due to their desire to increase participation in the semi auto group.

And yes, their is little advantage to 308 vs 30-06 since almost everyone is using hand loads tailored to their rifle in the Vintage match.

All the best.

John
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  #33  
Old 04-13-2021, 02:29 PM
Vxc961 Vxc961 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: California
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Well, I screwed up! I called my FFL to say the Italian M1 is on us way, and they replied “we don’t do that (mail order guns/ammo) anymore.”

I found a big box store relatively close that will do it, and tried calling Palmetto. When I press 1 to reach a sales rep, it hangs up on me. I’ll keep trying, but I did fell out Palmettos contact form, so hopefully I can get this figured out.

I think the moral is I need to buy guns more frequently to work out the kinks like this!
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  #34  
Old 04-13-2021, 02:56 PM
Miller Tyme Miller Tyme is offline
 
Join Date: May 2020
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Mine just arrived and it is fantastic, greasy but fantastic!
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  #35  
Old 04-14-2021, 10:38 AM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Location: Northern Virginia
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Quote:
What are the odds they will be added to the approved equipment list?
Quote:
I think they should be allowed, because they were legitimate conversions
used for a NATO country, chambered in a NATO cartridge, during the Cold War era. And if the M1Ds are allowed, then the Italian TIPO-2 conversions should be allowed for the Garand match.
Quote:
The thing in our advantage (those with 7.62 Breda Snipers) is that the CMP has not had much luck getting semi auto snipers to shoot in the Vintage Matches, despite lowering the medal scores for this group compared to the bolt rifle scores for medal achievement.

So once everyone gets their rifles, if enough of us send in enquiring emails to the CMP rules committee, the respond favorably due to their desire to increase participation in the semi auto group.
Well, the CMP rules re vintage sniper are that rifles up to 1953 can be used (end of Korean War), and that is prior to the adoption of the 7.62 NATO caliber. I think the Italian M1Ds were a mid-1960's era rifle configuration, but I need someone to confirm that. So that's a no-go, as it would open up requests for VSM to possibly add M1As and various other 7.62 NATO rifles from the 1960s era...

Another reason I am skeptical is that a GCA article years ago mentioned that a Board Member had requested that the M1Ds with 1" scope mounts and 4x Weaver scopes be allowed in the CMP VSM matches. It was voted down as that scope was ordered by the US military in 1964-65, and thus was considered too late for the vintage match, which again, is limited to 1953 or earlier.

PS: Here's two of my rifles from the same mid-1960s era as the Breda M1Ds in 7.62 NATO - and neither of these configuration is remotely legal in the CMP VSM matches...as they are both post-1953 configurations, like the neat Breda M1D sniper rifles on this thread. I might note that CMP hasn't sold any 7.62 NATO surplus weapons - aside from the Navy Mk 12 Mod 0/1 barreled actions and odd-ball auction items for match M1s in 7.62mm - none of which are legal in 'JCG as-issued' matches - given their caliber is not 30-06 (same logic applies to Breda M1s in 7.62mm).

(PS: For the record, I wish I could enter my M1D w/ 4x Weaver scope in a VSM as this rifle shoots quite well for an M1 - but that idea was shot-down per the GCA article years ago).

My opinion?: The recently imported Breda M1Ds in 7.62 are an interesting and very collectible rifle (esp with the original wood chest/scopes/etc), but I would be shocked if CMP suddenly allowed any rifles in 7.62 NATO into the vintage sniper category, as that would be a very slippery slope given it's a mid-1960s conversion. My 2cts.

Last edited by Random Guy; 04-14-2021 at 01:46 PM. Reason: typos
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  #36  
Old 04-14-2021, 10:48 AM
Jsmitty81 Jsmitty81 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Va
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Guy View Post
Well, the CMP rules re vintage sniper are that rifles up to 1953 can be used (end of Korean War), and that is several years prior to the adoption of the 7.62 NATO caliber. I think the Italian M1Ds were a mid-1960's era rifle, but I need someone to confirm that. So that's a no-go, as it would open it up to M1As and other 7.62 NATO rifles of 1960s era...

Another reason I am skeptical is that a GCA article years ago mentioned that a Board Member had requested that the M1Ds with 1" scope mounts and 4x Weaver scopes be allowed in the CMP VSM matches. It was voted down as that scope was ordered by the US military in 1964-65, and thus was considered too late for the vintage match, which again, is limited to 1953 or earlier.

I think the Breda M1Ds in 7.62 are an interesting and very collectible rifles (esp with the orginal wood chest/scopes/etc), but I would be shocked if CMP allowed any rifles in 7.62 NATO into the vintage sniper category, as that would be a very slippery slope given it's a mid-1960s conversion. My 2cts.
7.62 NATO was adopted in 1954 I believe
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  #37  
Old 04-14-2021, 11:28 AM
jason60chev jason60chev is offline
 
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Location: Tampa, Florida
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I should ask CMP, but will ask here, as it may be of interest to others.......I have a French MAS 1949 Syrian Contract, with a 1953 dated stock acceptance stamp, for which I have an original APEX scope/mount. Would THIS rifle be legal for the VSM? It is chambered in 7.5 French cartridge (Not rechambered to .308)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Guy View Post
Well, the CMP rules re vintage sniper are that rifles up to 1953 can be used (end of Korean War), and that is several years prior to the adoption of the 7.62 NATO caliber. I think the Italian M1Ds were a mid-1960's era rifle confuguration, but I need someone to confirm that. So that's a no-go, as it would up VSM to possibly M1As and various other 7.62 NATO rifles of mid-1960s era...

Another reason I am skeptical is that a GCA article years ago mentioned that a Board Member had requested that the M1Ds with 1" scope mounts and 4x Weaver scopes be allowed in the CMP VSM matches. It was voted down as that scope was ordered by the US military in 1964-65, and thus was considered too late for the vintage match, which again, is limited to 1953 or earlier.

PS: Here's two of my rifles from the same mid-1960s era as the Breda M1Ds in 7.62 NATO - and neither of these configuration is remotely legal in the CMP VSM matches...as they are both post-1953 configurations, like the neat Breda M1D sniper rifles on this thread. I might note that CMP hasn't sold any 7.62 NATO surplus weapons - aside from the Navy Mk 12 Mod 0/1 barreled actions and odd-ball auction items for match M1s in 7.62mm - none of which are legal in 'JCG as-issued' matches - given their caliber is not 30-06 (same logic applies to Breda M1s in 7.62mm).

(PS: For the record, I wish I could enter my M1D w/ 4x Weaver scope in a VSM as this rifle shoots quite well for an M1 - but that idea was shot-down per the GCA article years ago).

My opinion?: The recently imported Breda M1Ds in 7.62 are an interesting and very collectible rifle (esp with the original wood chest/scopes/etc), but I would be shocked if CMP suddenly allowed any rifles in 7.62 NATO into the vintage sniper category, as that would be a very slippery slope given it's a mid-1960s conversion. My 2cts.
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  #38  
Old 04-14-2021, 12:06 PM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Location: Northern Virginia
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Quote:
7.62 NATO was adopted in 1954 I believe.
That is correct. I suppose that might be why CMP chose 1953 as the cut-off for vintage sniper rifles? That date allows both the M1C and M1D to compete, which is what they sell/sold, but excludes all the various 7.62 NATO permutations that came later. (I think the first 7.62 NATO ammo, aka M59, was made around 1958, I think).

As for the French MAS 49 with a scope, that is a CMP question. It's not in the rule book, so only they can answer that question.
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  #39  
Old 04-14-2021, 12:20 PM
mnhusker mnhusker is offline
 
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Location: Minnesota
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Random

CMP does allow the M1 Garand in 7.62/308 to compete in the JCG matches, just has to shoot in the "Unlimited" categories with higher scores required to achieve medals in the event.

SO they are not biased against the caliber.

If the GCA, a major sponsor were to also support the entry of the 308/7.62 Garand sniper as a unique rifle in vintage matches, this would help.

It would be using the Garand, not when it was created but rather that unique rifle in Vintage.

Might work, who knows?
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  #40  
Old 04-14-2021, 01:16 PM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Location: Northern Virginia
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Yes, 308W M1s are allowed in the unlimited class, but I consider a match-prepped M1 in 308W shooting in 'unlimited' class as quite different than a 'as-issued' M1. (The later = no heavy barrels, no glass bedding, no NM sights, no NM gas cylinder mods, etc). As for CMP VSM there is no 'unlimited' class for sniper rifles in 308W, which is sort of what is being theoretically discussed in this thread.

However, based on a GCA Board Member losing the vote to add the 1" M1D mount with Weaver 4x scope, presumably due to the fact that the configuration was 'too modern' as it was from the mid-1960s era (post-1953). Never mind the fact that every single one of those Weaver scopes and USGI 1" M1D mounts were exclusively former US Army items that were sold by DCM/CMP back in the mid-1990s - so to me at least, it seems CMP leadership is sticking with 1953 or earlier technology - and not allowing any exceptions to the 1953 cut-off date.

Could the CMP VSM rules somehow change? Yes, but I am not holding my breath, esp since CMP didn't sell those Breda M1Ds and it was strictly a unique commercial import offering.

***

FWIW, here locally in VA the Quantico Shooting Club (QSC) holds a twice annual 'Precision vintage rifle match' that has 3 categories: Vintage, Vietnam, and Modern. They held their first match of 2021 last weekend, and I shot a 'vintage' M1903 on Saturday (300 & 600 yds), and on Sunday I used my 'modern' rifle (an M40A5 replica) at 800/1000 yards. Of course the CMP events are much stricter than this local match - but a Breda M1D in 7.62 would be welcome at a QSC vintage match. It would fall into the 'Vietnam' category based on its original era, and its 7.62mm caliber, technically speaking. (Typical Vietnam era rifles used at that match are M40, M21, and M70 replica snipers, and I once partnered with a guy using a real Russian SVD rifle).

My vintage rifle last Saturday at 300 yard berm...(same rifle I shoot at CMP Eastern Games vintage sniper match)...


...my and my shooting partner's modern rifles for Sunday at 800 yard berm...


...and another buddy's modern replica sniper rifle (Mk 13 Mod 0 replica) in 300 WinMag, so I guess that would be a "modern unlimited" class rifle...


My 2cts.

Last edited by Random Guy; 04-14-2021 at 01:42 PM.
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