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  #31  
Old 10-24-2020, 09:53 AM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Sir:
This is the problem with trying to force specific dates and nomenclature into your narrative.
Well, going back to your first post and my first post, I was only trying to add some additional historical info to this statement, which I didn't think was correct:

Quote:
FYI: The M14 was only used (again) in the mid 2000's for a couple of years, before being withdrawn from service again.
My comment to the above post:
Quote:
Not exactly per the historical record. While it is true that a large number of M14s were pulled from storage in the early-to-mid 200Xs for ad hoc DMR/SDM rifles, the fact is the Enhanced Battle Rifle (EBR) version of the M14 rifles with SAGE chassis were still widely in service with the US Army in the mid-201Xs, but were subsequently withdrawn in 2018-19ish.
....I still stand by that general statement based on my research of this topic, as the M14s with SAGE chassis continued in service as the standard SDM rifle into the late 201Xs within the US Army (M14 EBR-RI), although the tempo of troop engagements with the enemy likely lowered their useage level in Afghanistan, and as of 2020 its no longer a combat weapon in the US military (M14s are mostly ceremonial rifles at this point). I wasn't trying to create a "narrative," only trying to add additional context and information re the M14's interesting history in the "post-M21" period (post 1988). Here's a long post if interested: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../#post-6783748

I admit I don’t have much knowledge of the Ft Benning SDM course except reading some of the 2009 report that was used to justify the program along with the reported urgent ‘mission needs statements’ that justified RIA getting the funds and making 6k M14 EBRs beginning in 2009. I don’t know much about the AMU program.

As for the M110, that is a different topic and platform with its own interesting history. What needs to be emphasized is the SR-25 has always been designated by its military adapters as a 1-MOA capable, suppressor equipped, semi-automatic sniper rifle. The Navy/Crane worked with Knights Armament Corp (KAC) for many years in the 1990s to perfect the design for Navy SEALs/SOCOM guys, and ordered its first 300 SR-25s in March 2000, with the adopted nomenclature as the Mk 11 Mod 0. Here's a brand new one from the early 2000s (Naval Special Warfare sniper). I have a few accessories for one of these rifles such as an original Mk 11 transport case, cleaning kit, etc, but unfortunately no pricey KAC SR-25 rifle to go with it..



In Sept 2005 the KAC SR-25 entry won the 7.62mm Semi-Automatic Sniper System (SASS) contract, which became adopted as the M110 by the US Army, with the first 110 units going to Ft Drum and into service in 2006. By early-2011 there were 2,792 M110s in service, with another 181 on order. These were again, true 1-MOA sniper rifles and cost about $12k with kits back then. (They are too expensive for a DMR or SDM rifle limited to 600 meter engagements, and with the integrated suppressor and intrinsic long-range accuracy, they were always considered as a 900 meter capable sniper rifle from SOCOMs perspective, and the US Army’s as well.) Fwiw, I've corresponded with the small arms engineer at Crane who initially tested SR-25 serial number 0001 in the 1990s. He recalled the rifle's accuracy, but the old "waffle" pattern magazines were an issue that KAC had to fix, along with various other issues before it was subsequently adopted in 2000.

On EDIT: As an aside, when KAC won the SASS contract, KAC owner Reed Knight and others argued that the semi-automatic and suppressor equipped M110 should be the replacement of the bolt-action M24 as the US Army's official 7.62 NATO sniper rifle, but Big Army instead decided to take note of the success that the SOCOM community was having with the various 300 WinMag Mk 13 rifles. They had Remington Defense rebuild the long action M24s into the XM2010 configuration in 2010-11, so they basically recycled the US Army's' M24 receivers and turned their 900/1000 meter capable M24s into true 1500 meter capable M2010 sniper rifles with the big Leupold 6.5-20x scope and then-new-and-improved Mk 248 Mod 1 (300 WinMag) ammo, but I digress....

As noted by 'rickgman,' and me, there were 5,000 of the M14 EBR-RI completed by mid-2011 (or 6200 shortly thereafter), but these were always Squad Designated Marksman rifles, not sniper rifles, and while I don't have access to the cost data, they were relatively cheap, perhaps ~ $2500 or so for the SAGE chassis, Leupold optic and rings, plus the bipod, ARD, case and all other accessories. (The base M14 rifles had been rebuilt into "A" condition code back in 1983-84 and were put into long term storage until removed for the EBR project, and all the original parts were reused except the stock and op rod guide. RIA did remove the flash hiders and ream them to NM spec, but otherwise these were basically new condition, rack-grade M14s).

Anyhow, I haven't studied the US Army's M16-based SDM platform very much, other than it was developed by the AMU in the mid-to-late 200Xs period and was designed to allow an SDM-qualified soldier to 'blend-in' with his other infantry soldiers who were carrying standard M16A4s, etc. I think this was especially desirable in urban warfare such as the Iraq conflict, as guys carrying bolt-action M24 sniper rifles were reportedly targets for insurgents. I don't know how many M16-based SDMs were made at the AMU in comparison to the 6200 M14 EBR-RIs that were made at RIA.

Bottomline, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about whether or not the US Army was still using the M14 EBR-RI as of 2013 or 14, as you did not see any of them during your service, but my impression is they were still being used in Afghanistan (and perhaps elsewhere), and were still the Army’s official 7.62 SDM rifle until the 2017 contract to H&K was awarded. FWIW, I did send an email inquiry to two individuals involved with the EBR's, asking specifically when they were withdrawn from US military service, and I'll update this post once I hear back from either the guy who re-furbished these rifles when they came back from Afghanistan, or a retired guy who built them at Rock Island Arsenal (RIA) circa 2009-2012.

Last edited by Random Guy; 10-27-2020 at 06:15 AM.
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  #32  
Old 10-24-2020, 10:27 AM
mgrs mgrs is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
(Or as the other poster mentions when the rifles stopped being issued upon coming into country. Even though your photo in post #16 seems to contradict those comments).
Photos do though.........
Those are 'schoolhouse' rifles at that specific course. 'Line' units did not receive a full issue until deployed.

Furthermore, there were various ad-hoc and more official SDM courses. There were unit-level courses, TDY courses, and others.

I think your problem is conflating the SDM concept and SDMRs. You can bring a rack M4 and TA31 to an SDM course, but it is not technically an SDMR.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
PS: You also seem to be determined to ignore the "original" M110- the Stoner SR-25 variant- which was in use well before 2018.
Probably because it has nothing to do with this discussion aside from magazine pouch compatibility.
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  #33  
Old 10-24-2020, 10:48 AM
mgrs mgrs is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Random Guy View Post
Bottomline, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about whether or not the US Army was still using the M14 EBR-RI as of 2013 or 14, as you did not see any of them during your service, but my impression is they were still being used in Afghanistan (and perhaps elsewhere). FWIW, I did send to email inquiry to two individuals involved with the EBR's, asking specifically when they were withdrawn from US military service, and I'll update this post once I hear back from either the guy who re-furbished these rifles when they came back from Afghanistan, or a retired guy who built them at Rock Island Arsenal (RIA) circa 2009-2012.
The other problem on photos of the system in use that you are going to run into is that troop levels were drawing down significantly after 2013, and those who were there (on the conventional forces side) were there to secure infrastructure and advise afghan forces. Not much 'going outside the wire.' Most of the EBRs were probably just baking in conex boxes for the last few years of their service life.

EDIT: The below post on another forum also got sidetracked into Army EBRs, and suggests some are still around in AFG (or as of a month ago):

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/-...5398165&page=1

Last edited by mgrs; 10-24-2020 at 11:26 AM.
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  #34  
Old 10-24-2020, 11:47 AM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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The other problem on photos of the system in use that you are going to run into is that troop levels were drawing down significantly after 2013, and those who were there (on the conventional forces side) were there to secure infrastructure and advise afghan forces. Not much 'going outside the wire.' Most of the EBRs were probably just baking in conex boxes for the last few years of their service life.
That sounds right. I suspect the volume of M14 EBR-RIs that were being serviced/re-furbished towards the end was likely a small volume of guns, due to changes in troop activity. That said, its clear from the CASS/SDMR program that the recently procured 6k H&K SDMR rifles were publicly stated in 2018 by the US Army as a one-for-one replacement of the 6k legacy M14 EBRs, as the Army's official 7.62 caliber SDM rifle. (I very much doubt the US Army spokesperson in that article is publicly lying about the CASS/SDMR program’s goal of replacing the legacy M14 EBR rifles on a one-for-one basis...)

To your larger point, if peace really does break out in Afghanistan; the Taliban decide to put down all their weapons and stop bombing places, then perhaps many of the new H&K M110A1 SDMR/aka G28E rifles might also sit around baking in conex boxes in the years ahead for lack of a tactical need. That of course would be a good thing from a big picture perspective...

Below is a odd-post from spring of 2020 regarding the prospective deployment of some EBR-RIs, but they had issues with the rifles and reportedly they stayed stateside.
https://www.m14forum.com/threads/urg...etting.505580/
...odd post that I found curious, as did the user "EBRbuilder" who was one to the two main armorers at RIA who built the US Army's 6200 EBRs circa 2009-2012.

Last edited by Random Guy; 10-25-2020 at 02:56 PM.
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  #35  
Old 10-30-2020, 06:02 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by mgrs View Post
Those are 'schoolhouse' rifles at that specific course. 'Line' units did not receive a full issue until deployed.

Furthermore, there were various ad-hoc and more official SDM courses. There were unit-level courses, TDY courses, and others.

I think your problem is conflating the SDM concept and SDMRs. You can bring a rack M4 and TA31 to an SDM course, but it is not technically an SDMR.




Probably because it has nothing to do with this discussion aside from magazine pouch compatibility.
I was replying to Guys comments in #26 around paragraph 4......... He started drawing the M14's into some sort of image he has in his mind of the SDM program.....

And with his comments here: ".....I very much doubt the US Army spokesperson in that article is publicly lying about the CASS/SDMR program’s goal of replacing the legacy M14 EBR rifles on a one-for-one basis......."

It's clear that, to him, the CASS (M110/SR25 Stoner whatever you wish to call it)/SDMR ARE connected.
If these different systems were being used at different times, for different purposes but being replaced by an HK system, great.
But by Guys comments, it seems that the US Army looks at them as, for all intents and purposes, as the same, as they could be or are being replaced by one system.
So the issue you are having is with Random Guy and not me.......

You and I seem to be in agreement here. (?) The M14 and other systems were sent out to the field to try to address an ongoing problem (having accurate rifles available at a squad level) around mid? 2000's. Some worked, some didn't. There were multiple approaches used and fielded. Most if not all seemed to have petered out by around 2014. You bring up draw downs, sure! Maybe that was it. Maybe one system was being used more than another. Maybe that was it. Maybe they just sat in a CONEX (which I CAN ENTIRELY SEE myself).......
But as you imply, and I'm saying, that isn't the same as saying they were used up to 2018, when this HK Contract came about.

So after all this back and forth, arguments about nomenclature, etc, blah-blah............. we are still at the same idea as presented on the first page: The M14 was fielded up until about the mid 2010's- lets say 2014ish.

So to the OP's original question that started this all: It wasn't fielded in enough numbers to get it's own specific magazine pouches. And now, whether you agree with the 2014 or 2018...... it's been replaced by another rifle (whatever you want to call it).
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 11-01-2020 at 02:45 PM.
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