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  #121  
Old 05-03-2015, 12:10 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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I too had no issues with SAI. It's been 15yrs or so since I competed with an M14. I just bought the SAI, match conditioned them (SAI parts or not) and they shot as good as me- no issues.

Ironically, it was a loaner USGI M14 that soon after I got it, the bolt roller disappeared. So yes- I needed to find a spare bolt to put in it. By then I realized to advantages to the AR and didn't look back.
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  #122  
Old 05-03-2015, 01:01 PM
DetroitMan DetroitMan is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
Detroit man:

You say: "The M14 clones actually have the advantage in that all the manufacturers are making parts to the same dimensional standards."

But clearly they don't:
I can take the gas system and op rod off of any M14 made and put it on mine. But you can't swap the gas tube, bolt, and bolt carrier from a Colt 6920 into a Ruger SR-556. Ruger isn't the only one building AR's with non standard parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
As you say:.....it boils down to the fact that most of the original M14 manufacturers were making out-of-tolerance parts...... So clearly the "USGI" parts that persons on this very thread have suggesting to complete their M14's with have been, well, making a poor suggestion. Clearly- your statement is that- the parts are substandard. So why would anyone trust them?
Most of those problems were fixed during the production lifetime of the M14. Out of spec parts were discarded or fixed. The M14 went on to earn a sterling reputation with the troops who carried it. The fact that it is still serving today is a testament to the quality of the end product.

Furthermore, any modern manufacturer worth their salt is testing their rifles to make sure the parts are in spec. The M14 community is very critical, and more than a few makers have gone belly up when their rifles didn't meet the standards. The fact is that SEI, LRB, and JRA are all making top quality rifles with forged parts. Fulton makes a top quality rifle with a cast receiver. SAI is having some quality problems, but plenty of owners fix their rifles and have a trouble-free future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
-You have the various commercial parts: But in this very thread, other "pro-M14" (for lack of a better grouping) posters themselves can't agree if any of those are any good. IN THIS VERY THREAD- no one can agree. SAI, SEI etc have all been criticized! EVEN YOU criticized SAI.

So even you admit these rifles are being built with either substandard USGI parts or poor commercial copies. You've answered your own question regarding the issues with the M14. So how can it be a "solid performer?"
Disagreements about the quality of various manufacturers do not make the M14 platform bad. There have been a few manufacturers that messed up the AR-15 and the rifles wouldn't run correctly. That doesn't make the AR a bad rifle.

As for the M14 being a solid performer, my JRA will shoot 1 MOA with good ammo. Sure, you can get an AR to shoot sub MOA, but I would say that 1 MOA with factory ammo is a solid performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
-According to the NRA-ILA 2014 Fact sheet, "Americans now own five million AR-15s, the number is growing by several hundred thousand annually,........" So how or why you can make any statement that any of the AR's will be orphaned ever is beyond me. That doesn't include the Military sources of rifles/parts. (In contrast there were what 1.3 million? TOTAL US M14's made? In several yrs, there will be as many AR's in private hands as the total M1 Garand production!)
The industry is currently flooded with AR makers, with more coming online. It's reasonable to think there will be a shakeout at some point. Whether you admit it or not, some of those makers are using proprietary parts that are not compatible with the standard AR parts. If you buy one of those proprietary guns and the maker goes belly up, you're orphaned. Or maybe the maker decides their proprietary gun is unprofitable and discontinues it, again leaving orphans. Of course you could always throw away the proprietary pieces, but on some guns that means discarding the entire upper or lower. You really aren't reaping the advantages of the AR platform at that point.

Perhaps what I should have said is that the OP would do well do his research on the AR-10 and make sure he is getting a gun with standardized parts.

Last edited by DetroitMan; 05-03-2015 at 01:04 PM.
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  #123  
Old 05-03-2015, 01:05 PM
ZvenoMan ZvenoMan is offline
 
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Seems to me this thread has one theme; that comparing an M14 and an AR in 308 is like comparing apples and oranges.
If you want an AR, then an AR is probably all that will satisfy that urge, same as the urge for an M14.

The issue or parts reliability is, like with any platform, more of an opinion as the overall stats do not show either platform to have any significant deficiencies (other than some of the M14 "out of tolerance" issues, clearly not a fault of the design but specific manufacturers).

I would expect any of the current AR 308 guns to be very high quality and as reliable as most of the other AR designs, but the fact that should a part be replaced (not likely in my experience) it may not fit, that is a red flag for me. For others, I am a sure it is not an issue. Does not affect the quality of a specific AR 308 that another manufacturer's mag or bolt won't fit.....

Bottom line; the M14 is an old design, the AR is designed with different engineering and the modular concept, and the added benefit of some AR15/M16 parts interchangeability and modularity makes it simply a different comparison.
Can you compare a base model SAI M1A ($1300) to a NM prepped M14 ($3000), any more than a $$550 low end AR15 to a RRA/WOA Service Match AR15 ($1200)? Different purposes, but to the grocery store magazine commando, they look the same.....
I have every reason to think building a "service match" AR10, like an AR15 will be quite the paper killer, but no motivation until it (if ever) becomes a "service rifle". Other matches, not my forte.... Parts interchangeability is less an issue in this area (how many put a shotgun news $80 BCG into a match AR15...)

Now a AR 308 simply as a battle rifle (not for match use) interests me greatly, but for me, until there is a parts standard......

Sure glad I can afford both, and need neither! 1st world problems......
JH
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  #124  
Old 05-03-2015, 01:45 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
 
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Gewehr43, the only reason this thread has continued is your continuing refusal to look at the hard facts presented, and be honest with yourself. It's as if you you believe that if you refuse to acknowledge hard, observable facts long enough, the rest of us will believe you! Arguing teething troubles during original production and issue of the M14 (that were fixed forty five years ago) would be like me recalling all the AR failures and dead GIs in Vietnam due to the flawed intro (and original parts) of the AR rifle as a valid argument not to buy one today. Ridiculous. That was then, this is now.

The .30 caliber ARs don't have Parts Interchange on the rather important parts that make them .308/7.62mm rifles (like bolts, carriers, recievers, barrels), and there is no "standard". Parts from a DPMS .308 don't fit a POF .308 and neither of them fit a Colt .308, etc, etc, etc, down the whole list of AR makers. They are made in small numbers by only a few makers. There is not even a single standard for magazines. None of this is debatable - but you refuse to acknowledge this proves the "orphan" argument at least deserves consideration in deciding which platform to buy.

Until there is a US adopted .mil Type Standardized 7.62MM AR style rifle, produced in large enough numbers such that it's dimensions are adopted by everybody in the AR producing industry (like the M14/M1A has in it's own manufacturing world) the 7.62MM AR as a type remains a bright, smart, bastard child. A one off, excellent design - that is poorly supported for the civilian shooter for the long haul, at least for now. If that does not bother you - or you can afford spare parts/rifles - go for it.

The OP wanted information and opinions vs. the two types of 7.62mm rifles. He got that, honestly stated. Both rifles have advantages and disadvantages, as would be expected. I can certainly accept that an out of the box AR/.308 may be slightly more accurate than an out of the box M14/M1A. That is an advantage. An M14/M1A owner can get parts that fit his rifle from any of a number of original and new production sources. That is an advantage, too. Each one of us decides which advantages are most important - to himself. You should honestly accept the current limitations of the AR .308, as it is currently produced and sold to the public, like the rest of us accept the limitations of buying an M14 clone.

Everything man made has it's limitations - if God didn't build it, it has flaws. End of story. I think I've worked on this discussion long enough, and I wish you an excellent day. CC

Last edited by Col. Colt; 05-03-2015 at 01:59 PM.
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  #125  
Old 05-03-2015, 02:50 PM
30calmike 30calmike is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZvenoMan View Post
30calmike seems to mirror my experiences. However I do not agree on the SAI stock; their synthetic stock is made of a polymer and not a fiberglass like the USGI. I found that it had some flex in it, so I replaced it with USGI. Is that flex a problem for accuracy, I am far from an expert but I do not see any seeking out those stocks.
I do suggest you buy the SAI M1As with them, as they are $100 less than the same model with a wood stock, and a USGI can be acquired for much less!

My M1A was purchased new, by me, just a few years ago, so I guess most (all?) parts are not USGI. No problems so far, with function or accuracy, and it shoos as expected.

JH
I have found the USGI fiberglass stocks to be very weak and flexible at the front end; the SAI polymer ones seem to be a bit stouter in the front, but never as good as wood. Actually, spending the additional $100.00 for a walnut stock on a new SAI M1A is really the best way to go. The new wood has more beef and and lack the cut-outs on an M14 stock. Most have nice walnut to boot.
Mike.

Last edited by 30calmike; 05-03-2015 at 02:52 PM.
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  #126  
Old 05-03-2015, 05:02 PM
ZvenoMan ZvenoMan is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30calmike View Post
I have found the USGI fiberglass stocks to be very weak and flexible at the front end; the SAI polymer ones seem to be a bit stouter in the front, but never as good as wood. Actually, spending the additional $100.00 for a walnut stock on a new SAI M1A is really the best way to go. The new wood has more beef and and lack the cut-outs on an M14 stock. Most have nice walnut to boot.
Mike.
Interesting, I found the SAI flexed more in the front than the USGI fiberglass when I still had the SAI! But I agree, wood is the way to go.
Match builds seem to all be on wood, so that must mean something!

And yes, SAI does use nice wood.

JH
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  #127  
Old 05-03-2015, 10:23 PM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZvenoMan View Post
Interesting, I found the SAI flexed more in the front than the USGI fiberglass when I still had the SAI! But I agree, wood is the way to go.
Match builds seem to all be on wood, so that must mean something!

And yes, SAI does use nice wood.

JH
The best match builds are likely McMillan glass, not wood.
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  #128  
Old 05-04-2015, 11:01 AM
Smal Smal is offline
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Just Wanted to Thank all of you for taking the time to answer my question since the dust has settled a bit,My A-Kit Parts look to have little if any wear so i guess i lucked out even the wood stock looks good,I think ill Go with the JRA set up,Has any one sent in there kit and had them build you one up,or are you better off just doing it yourself.Thank You again,Jim
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  #129  
Old 05-04-2015, 01:18 PM
nf1e nf1e is offline
 
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Good going Jim. I found the A kits that I got from CMP to be in like new condition. I managed to get 3 from each manufacturer. The stocks were pretty darn nice to.
If you are questioning your own ability, I would sure give JRA a call. They are very nice folks to deal with.
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