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  #11  
Old 12-03-2015, 10:27 AM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Guy View Post
2sofflead - Here's what I meant by folks liking to pooh pooh SAI....
Correcting incorrect information isn't "pooh poohing" anything. SAI does not manufacture the complete rifle. They probably finish machine the receiver, but the rest is outsourced. The entire XD line is imported. Most of their 1911 components are sourced overseas too.
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  #12  
Old 12-03-2015, 12:34 PM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Quote:
SAI does not manufacture the complete rifle
I agree, but I don't see your point. All the other manufactures of M1As do the same thing - they rely on a myiad of subcontractors and NONE of them make all 60+ parts on the rifle. In fact during the original M14 program the 3 commercial entities that made the rifles only produced about a dozen parts, with the rest of the parts subcontracted out. For example:

Page 102-103 of "The Last Steel Warrior" by Frank Iannamico:

Quote:
"After submitting their bid of $85.54 per rifle, TRW, Inc was awarded the contract on 2 October 1961. The company was given until November 1962 to begin delivering the weapon in quantity....Like all of the other companies involved in M14 manufacture, TRW used many subcontractors to produce parts. The company concentrated their efforts on the manufacture of the eleven most complex pieces, which included: the receiver, bolt, operating rod, barrel, gas cylinder and piston, flash suppressor, trigger housing, connector, hammer and rear sight base. Parts produced at the company's plant (in Cleveland, OH) were marked TRW to identify the manufactuer. All parts that were manufactured by subcontractors were thoroughly inspected and gaged to insure that they met the company's high standards. Even though subcontractors were used for many component parts, TRW was responsible for the assembly, testing and delivery of the final product."
Same went for HRA and WRA, they all used subcontractors for the vast majority of the small parts, just like SAI does today. (I recall an M14/M1A has over 60 parts, so 11 parts of out of 60 is about 18%, so one could say that even during the original M14 program, about 80% of the parts came from subcontractors, with the main firm building about a dozen or so of the major/complex parts of an M14 .

For whatever reason you (and others) want to pooh pooh what SAI is doing, as if its any different from what the other M1A vendors are doing (eg, LRB, Rock-Ola, Smith Enterprises, etc), or somehow different from how the original M14s were made...but the historical record is quite clear. Even the original gov't operated Springfield Armory, the most massive fire arms manufacturing facility that has ever existed in the US, utilized a myrid of subcontractors when they were making millions of M1 Garand rifles, especially during the 1950s when their was an active strategy to bring commercial firms into the fire arms making business for the US military.

..indeed, trying to manufacture every part on a complex system like an M14/M1A is not economical and will lead to a quick bankruptucy unless you have massive amounts of orders for your product (ie, hundreds of thousands of orders for M1A rifes, etc).

BTW, re Wayne Enterprises in Taiwan, you might find this interesting, page 375 of "The Last Steel Warrior":
Quote:
"The Type 57 rifles produced in Taiwan were manufactured on U.S. machinery for the arming of the Taiwan military by the state arsenal. Most of the machinery was the former U.S. Government owned equipment used by Harrington and Richardson during their M14 production in the U.S. The Taiwanese rifles are the equivalent of the U.S. M14 rifles, except for the Chinese characters marked on the receiver heel. Taiwan adopted the Type 57 rifle in 1968 and began production in 1969."
Its ironic, but as I noted re the de-industrlization of the US economy, along with massive trade globalization - M1A parts that SAI might get from Taiwan this year are most likely made on U.S. machinery that the US gov't gave or sold to Taiwan in the late 1960s that was previously used by H&R in Worchester, MA, during the original M14 program back in the late 1950s/early 1960s...I guess the economics make sense as the original milling machines, jigs, guages, etc, reportedly cost several million dollars 55 years ago when they were originally ordered/manufactured.

FWIW, I highly recommend the book, The Last Steel Warrior as a complete and unbiased analysis of the M14 program and today's contemporary versions of this historic rifle. It highlights the good and bad...and some very interesting history.

Last edited by Random Guy; 12-03-2015 at 01:37 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-03-2015, 01:10 PM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Guy View Post
I agree, but I don't see your point. All the other manufactures of M1As do the same thing - they rely on a myiad of subcontractors and NONE of them make all 60+ parts on the rifle. In fact during the original M14 program the 3 commercial entities that made the rifles only produced about a dozen parts, with the rest of the parts subcontracted out.
My original comment was in response to:

"They are able to manufacturer many parts in-house, including the complex receivers. This in-house capability affords them significant economies of scale in economic terms, thereby allowing them to offer many varieties of the M1A and typically at lower prices relative to most other M1A companies"

The above is false. That is all.

I have a copy of the Last Steel Warrior.

Last edited by missilegeek; 12-03-2015 at 01:14 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-03-2015, 03:38 PM
Renisin Renisin is offline
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I too have a copy of The Last Steel Warrior and several other publications on the history of the M14. The fact remains that most of what SAI is offering is made over seas and sub par to what was made by US contractors here in the states for such companies as TRW.

SAI. at no fault of their own has had to remain competitive and to do that has had to cut manufacturing costs....out source to the lowest bidder and cheapen parts. If you want a SAI rifle like was made 25-30 years ago you will pay twice the price.

The simple fact is SAI M1As made today are not nearly what was produced 20-30 years ago.

If I were going to buy SAI. I would be looking on the secondary market, thats where the most bang for your buck will be found.

Last edited by Renisin; 12-03-2015 at 03:54 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12-03-2015, 06:20 PM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Quote:
The above is false. That is all.
Blanket assertions without any demonstrable facts are not even arguments, they are just personal opinions.

I try to provide verifable facts in my posts, not just opinions, so their is no point in discussing the issue any further, but I do stand by my posts that SAI was until very recently, to the best of my knowledge, the only M1A manufacturer that made their own marked bolts, barrels and other complex parts such as windage knobs, gas cylinders, etc. I know that forged bolts are now available from others re M1As, but that is a very recent development, and during the 1990s and 200Xs, that was not the case. So they do indeed have in-house manufacturing capabilities that other manufactures simply do not have to my knowledge, hence the economy of scale observation, and the higher volume of sales at certain price points.

Quote:
SAI. at no fault of their own has had to remain competitive and to do that has had to cut manufacturing costs....out source to the lowest bidder and cheapen parts. If you want a SAI rifle like was made 25-30 years ago you will pay twice the price.
What evidence of "cheaper parts" have you seen? My understanding is that the huge supply of USGI M14 parts that were readily available from the 1980s dried up about 10 or so years ago, and thus SAI likely had to get Mil-Spec parts from other sources, such as Wayne manufacturing. This USGI parts issue impacted Fulton, LRB, Smith Enterprises, Rock-Ola just as it did/does SAI, heck, it reportedly impacted the US military and its ability to repair and deploy M14s as DMR rifles in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Even Fulton Armory and the others state they use "GI and full Mil-Spec" parts, but who are the subcontractors making these Mil-Spec parts for the M14? Not sure as they are not identified, as not even the US military could source enough spare USGI M14 parts during the previous decade, and hence the development of the M110 sniper rifle, etc.

I agree that if you want mostly USGI parts you'll need to buy an older SAI M1A, but I have not seen any recent recalls or problems with the current parts used by SAI and I suspect most of the other manufactures.

Since you have the book, The Last Steel Warrior, I suspect you are aware of the history of problematic, sub par parts made for the M14. Wrong steel used in receivers and bolts, plenty of improperly heated treated and brittle M14 parts made during the late 1950s, along with some catastrophic failures of M14s rifles during extended testing at Ft Hood in 1960s, etc, is well documented. These quality control issues and other production problems contributed to the premature cancellation of the M14 program entirely.

BTW, no one has answered the original poster's question regarding SAI vs Fulton Armory NM rifles, and what justifies the difference in price? I suspect the difference is related to SAI's economies of scale, and not intrinsic differences in quality of build or materials used.

Last edited by Random Guy; 12-03-2015 at 08:06 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-03-2015, 08:30 PM
2sofflead 2sofflead is offline
 
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Thanks Random guy. One of my primary concerns was whether anyone knew of a significant difference in accuracy.
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  #17  
Old 12-03-2015, 08:46 PM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Guy View Post
Blanket assertions without any demonstrable facts are not even arguments, they are just personal opinions.

I try to provide verifable facts in my posts, not just opinions, so their is no point in discussing the issue any further, but I do stand by my posts that SAI was until very recently, to the best of my knowledge, the only M1A manufacturer that made their own marked bolts, barrels and other complex parts such as windage knobs, gas cylinders, etc.
You present no proof of this. All evidence indicates they do not and never have manufactured those parts.

SAI produces an adequate rifle at a decent price point. With some work (and every manufacturer's rifle is going to require this) they can be quite accurate and reliable (the stock rifle).

As to Fulton vs SAI, the Peerless NM rifle has a forged oprod and Sadlak upgrade parts (worth about $50 or so). The Fulton is $4050 with the McMillan stock and the SAI SuperMatch is $3800 (Creedmoor, so probably close to MSRP) with the glass stock. A base SAI NM model is going to be $2900 (same source), but that doesn't have a rear lug. So, the SAI could be considered to be $200 cheaper than the closest equivalent Fulton. Notable, but not huge.

For Highpower XTC use, I'd buy an older SAI or other rifle with mostly USGI parts and then upgrade it with a custom gunsmith. Cost is about the same or even less. In fact, that's what I did.

Last edited by missilegeek; 12-03-2015 at 09:10 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12-03-2015, 10:38 PM
aloreman aloreman is offline
 
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Real world pricing puts a nm at 1850 and a wood stocked supermatch at 2400. Mcmillian stocked rifle at 2900. Having shot about every major manufacture i can tell ya that i cant out shoot a heelstamp. As far as all the "sai" failure crap. They manufactured ten times the rifles as any other company. If not more. Somyea they have a few more noted issues.
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  #19  
Old 12-08-2015, 08:08 AM
howardhuge howardhuge is offline
 
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Look SAInc out sources everything on the rifle, they are parts assemblers. As the Gent above stated the Receivers are cast in Canada, Rest Taiwan and other subs. I have a older (under sn 100,000) SAInc with GI forged parts. Receiver is out of spec for scope rail, But the rifle shoots fine. I haver LRB that is like a forged Rolex, and I bought a new SOCOM in 2009. They Do have a good warranty...you'll use it often. Canada has been making receivers for SAInc for 20 years. I for one will never buy one of their rifles, to many well made rifles used with GI parts no reason to fool with that new stuff. And as far as "Buy America" goes there are many small US shops producing m1a parts to assemble a first class rifle, buying SAInc you support Off shore workers...Wang Chung Ho says thanks.

Last edited by howardhuge; 12-08-2015 at 08:11 AM.
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  #20  
Old 12-08-2015, 08:24 AM
howardhuge howardhuge is offline
 
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Also...the reason Early SAInc used GI parts is they never manufactured any, In the 70/80's they were able to buy truck loads of surplus GI Parts cheap. Devine Tx rifles were all hand built, later on the amount of hand fitting was reduced to reduce costs. Production rifles to about 100,000 still used GI parts and the rifles were extensively checked and gauged. No so much today. SAInc also sold BM59's and 62's that were built on imported Beretta receivers or modified SAInc receivers, again they assembled the rifles only from imported parts. The only Springfield Armory that built its own parts was in Mass from 1770 to 1977.
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