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  #11  
Old 08-11-2020, 11:19 AM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Gentlemen, I think there is a bit of confusion here. The M14 rifle and the Mk 14 EBR rifle share the same basic mechanical hardware but are still distinctly different rifles. M14 rifles were shipped overseas prior to the development of the Mk 14 EBR. Use of the M14 rifle was a stop gap measure. In fact, when the M14's were re-issued, there was a critical shortage of magazines. I would bet that there were no magazine pouches that were supplied with the rifles. Later, the Army acquired spare magazines from CMI. Fielding of the Mk 14 EBR was a much more organized matter and spare magazines, cleaning kits, etc. were supplied with the rifle. Of course, the real descriminators are the use of the SAGE chassis and the Leupold Mk 4 scope. The M14's originally fielded did not have scopes although enterprising soldiers did scope some of them. I am also pretty sure enterprising soldiers found suitable magazine pouches. At that time, SOCOM units did use SR-25's in the DMR role and there were magazine pouches made by Eagle Industries for that application.
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  #12  
Old 08-11-2020, 01:21 PM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Yes, from the 2002/3 to 2008 period when M14s were pulled from storage, they were sent out with only 1 magazine - and as noted above, standard magazine pouches were lacking. (Unless an SR-25 type magazine pouch was used). So soldiers improvised, as they tend to do...like this soldier in the early days of Iraq conflict (circa May 2004):

40513-A-3978J-007 A soldier, of 1st Platoon, Comanche Company 1-23 Infantry, 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT) looks through his scope of an M-14 sniper rifle in Mosul, Iraq on May 13, 2004. C Co. are conducting a search for non compliant forces. 3rd Bde. SBCT is in Iraq in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. (U.S. Army photo by Sgt. Jeremiah Johnson) (unclassified)(released)



...again, not sure what magazine pouches were used with the USMC M14 DMR circa 2000-2010ish.



...As noted by Rick, things likely became far more standardized w/ the M14 EBR program in the late 200Xs.

Last edited by Random Guy; 09-22-2020 at 09:22 AM.
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  #13  
Old 08-16-2020, 09:56 AM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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RG, The pouches in the class photo look a lot like the Eagle Industries mag pouches that were procured for use with the SCAR-H.
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  #14  
Old 09-21-2020, 09:00 PM
2908 2908 is offline
 
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Great post and responses. Thanks
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  #15  
Old 09-22-2020, 04:31 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Guy View Post
Not exactly per the historical record. While it is true that a large number of M14s were pulled from storage in the early-to-mid 200Xs for ad hoc DMR/SDM rifles, the fact is the Enhanced Battle Rifle (EBR) version of the M14 rifles with SAGE chassis were still widely in service with the US Army as of 2018, but were subsequently withdrawn in 2019-2020.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_14_...d_Battle_Rifle

2008-2018: Approx 6200 M14 EBR-RI rifles were issued as the US Army's standard Squad Designated Marksman rifles (SDM). Here's a quick history of those 6k rifles:
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editoria...-ebr-ri/247604



As for the question re magazine pouches: Each M14 EBR-RI was issued with 6 CMI magazines, and if I can find the reference, I think 3 Eagle Industries double M14 magazine pouches. That might have changed over time as Eagle Industries was subsequently sold to I think a foreign entity and the M14 magazines were discontinued. Here's what I think was originally issued with the early M14-EBR-RIs: https://www.opticsplanet.com/eagle-i...uch-molle.html


Here's some pics for anyone interested:



Relatively recent picture from 201X with several M14 EBR-RI, but not sure of exact date (note mag pouches, which look similar to the Eagle Industries design).
I suspect all these soldiers were qualified as Squad Desginated Marksman, and all were issued the same rifle and gear:


An EBR-RI in Afghanistan, Sept 2009. I noted the 3 mag pouches are OD green which is a little unusual:


This pic is likely 2009 or 2010 in Afghanistan (it is shown in the 2011 Leupold Tactical catalog).
The magazine pouches do not have flaps, so not sure what is being used here:


The USMC used the M14 DMR from 2000 to about 2009/2010 afterwhich they used the SAGE-chassis M39 (M14s) for a short period from 2008-2012, afterwhich they were replaced with the M110. I'm not sure what the USMC used for M14 magazine pouches.

The US Navy used the Mk 14 Mod 0/1 from 2004 until the late 200Xs. The final version, the Mk 14 Mod 2 were made in 2011 (only 250 made) and I think is still used by the Navy Expeditionary Combat Command (NECC). Not sure if the US Air Force (M14 EMR SEI) and US Coast Guard (M 14 T) are still using their M14s in SAGE chassis developed in the mid-200Xs.

So, while it is true that the M14s have largely been withdrawn from US military service as of 2020, it is important to note the SAGE chassis for the M14 extended its service life for about 15 years, and over 10k M14s in various configurations with the SAGE chassis were used by all branches of the US military from ~ 2004 to ~ 2018-19ish.
FWIW:
I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a credible source and the gunsammo article seems to be talking about the experiences of the 2004-08 time frame.
When I was last US Army Infantry, 2014, when we spoke of an SDM, it meant either some version of the mk12 or M110.
I never saw any sort of an M14 and no one knew what I was talking about.
But I wasn't in every unit.
So I'll stand by my comment of mid 2000's they were gone. Long gone by 2019.

Do you have a current photo as a reference?
For example with the exception of what appears to be a class photo (the 20 or so guys posing. all with the M14's) all the other photos have the GI's wearing ACU's (or even earlier), which dates them to early-mid 2000's.

PS. We might be starting to play semantics so just to be clear, when I say "mid- 2000's"..... I meant around 2012ish, that time frame........... they were pulled from service. I apologize if I wasn't being clear in the timeframe.
But again if you have a dated photo or something to show later service than that, by all means, I could be wrong.
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 09-22-2020 at 05:07 AM.
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  #16  
Old 09-22-2020, 06:15 AM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Quote:
PS. We might be starting to play semantics so just to be clear, when I say "mid- 2000's"..... I meant around 2012ish, that time frame........... they were pulled from service. I apologize if I wasn't being clear in the timeframe.
Yes, when you said "mid-2000s" I assumed 2004-2006 era. The SAGE chassis was not adopted by the US military until 2004 (ie, Mk 14 Mod 0), and I consider that "mid-2000s". I'll dig around for more info as I know the guy who held the SAGE contract for the DoD and he might know when the last SAGE chassis were ordered for the Army. I do know that most of the M14 EBR-RI were made from 2009 to 2011. There were 5,000 made as of May 2011. Doug Carlstrom was the PM in charge of that program. Regarding the Guns & Ammo article, "How the US Army builds the EBR," I think this sentence is informative:

Quote:
"On the 5th day of May 2011, this team built the 5,000th (EBR-RI) rifle, one of only two ever inducted into the Rock Island Arsenal Museum the same day it was built (the other being a M1903 Springfield serial number 1). The Rock Island Arsenal Museum is the second-oldest U.S. Army museum, which is open to the public (riamwr.com/museum)."
I have read another 1200 were built after that for a total of 6200 rifles, but I need to get confirmation. My guess is that most of them ended up in Afghanistan based on what I have read and all the pics of them are in Afghanistan, but perhaps some went to other places as well. Here's a Feb 2012 DoD picture of EBR-RI training at Ft. Bragg prior to a deployment to Afghanistan.
https://www.usar.army.mil/News/Image...to/2001914052/

Caption reads:
Quote:
"FORT BRAGG, N.C. - Sgt. 1st Class Leslie Lewis, seated, monitors soldiers with 2nd Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, during a range estimation exercise as part of squad designated marksmanship training at Fort Bragg, N.C., Feb. 10. The 2/504th PIR, preparing for an upcoming deployment to Afghanistan, received training from members of the Army Reserve Marksmanship team on the Enhanced Battle Rifle. (U.S. Army Reserve photo by Timothy L. Hale/U.S. Army Reserve Command)"


I should note that the M110 was/is classified as a sniper rifle, and was not a replacement for the M14 EBR-RI, which was classified as a Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) rifle. Unlike SDM rifles, the US Army requires that sniper rifles have a lot of kit, and this picture illustrates why the M110 with its full deployment kit cost probably 4 or 5x more than an M14 EBR-RI(!)..



Per US Army doctrine, an SDM rifle must be able to accurately engage targets out to 600 meters. (In the 201Xs, this was the MK 12/SPR and the M14EBR-RI rifles). In contrast, US Army doctrine requires that a sniper rifle designation requires that the rifle be able to accurately engage targets at 900 meters (ie, M24/M2010 and for semi-auto rifle the M110/aka SR-25 rifle). This designation difference impacted the optics specified on the new H&K rifles adopted by the Army, but more on that in a moment...

Army to Begin Fielding Thousands of Squad Marksman Rifles by Oct. 1
23 Mar 2018
https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/...les-oct-1.html

Quote:
The U.S. Army will begin fielding roughly 6,000 Heckler & Koch G28E rifles as the service's new Squad Designated Marksman Rifle before the end of fiscal 2018.
...the US Army wanted to replace the M14 EBR-RI, but they had to award a contract first, which occurred in 2017. Fielding the replacement for the EBR-RI started in late 2018/early 2019:

Quote:
..."The basis of issue for SDMR ... is one per squad in the infantry, engineer and scout formations. Right now, we are roughly sitting at 6,000 rifles."

The G28E will replace the Enhanced Battle Rifle 14 -- an SDMR the Army has fielded since 2009. The modernized M14 is equipped with a Sage International adjustable aluminum stock with pistol grip, a Leupold 3.5-10 power scope, and Harris bipod legs.

The Army adopted the 15-pound EBR 14 under an operational needs statement in response to the growing need of infantry squads operating in Afghanistan to engage enemy fighters at longer ranges.

"That is exactly what it is designed to do, replace the EBR 14," Easlick said. "Because it was based on an operational needs statement, there were never any fielded for home-station training. You fell in those weapon systems in theater."
The US Army's new SDMR is based on the modular H&K rifle (aka G28 in the German Army)
https://www.stripes.com/news/army/ge...ifles-1.625585

Its important to note that the H&K rifle is somewhat modular and the contact that H&K won is for both US Army SDMR rifles - and US Army sniper rifles. Hence the difference in optics that the new H&K rifles are getting, along with a few other details:

H&K SDMR aka 'M110A1 Squad Designated Marksman Rifle' version is getting a Sig 1-6X24mm scope. Again, SDM soldiers are trained to engage targets out to 600 or so meters.

H&K CSASS (aka Compact Semi-Automatic Sniper System) version is getting the more powerful S&B 3-20X scope. Full-blown Army snipers are presumably trained to engage targets at 900 or 1000 meters w/ 7.62 NATO M118 (or more with the M2010/300 WinMag rifles), and hence they get the high-end/high-magnification S&B scopes.

I could be wrong, but my understanding after much reading on this topic is that the US Army's official SDM rifle in 7.62x51mm was the M14 EBR-RI from 2009 to 2017/2018, after which it was replaced with the new H&K SDMR aka M110A1 with the 1-6x SIG scope. I have recently heard that the M14 EBR-RIs were being recalled in the late 201Xs and are being de-commissioned... I also heard that some are now being sold to foreign militarizes, but I don't know those details.

Last edited by Random Guy; 09-22-2020 at 09:55 AM. Reason: fixed typo: AR-25 corrected to SR-25
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  #17  
Old 09-22-2020, 07:22 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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No worries......... As I read my posts I realized I wasn't being clear and leading to confusion as to the time frame I was referring to.

Again I'll just say that when I was last in an Infantry unit (2014) no one had or heard of an M14. Again maybe some other units had them.

At that time the only section that had any "Special rifles" (you're throwing around all sorts of names etc and definitions that may or not apply) was the Scout/Sniper Platoon and they had M110's (Stoner SR-25's).
Otherwise we had our M240's.
We were getting ready to deploy for Afghanistan and we had several troops in the line platoons train up with Mk12 SPR's.

OK, thanks, so the latest picture you have is 2014.

BTW.... an M110 is an Stoner SR-25. A HK 28 is just that. Both are unique rifles. Both might be given the same title by the US Army (ie Squad Designated Marksman Rifle) but they aren't the same rifle.
So just I confused you by my year comments, you're confusing me by saying things like "..... H&K SDMR aka M110A1 ......"

Thanks for the photo!
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  #18  
Old 09-22-2020, 08:25 AM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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The acronyms can get confusing, esp since the Army added the "A1" on the end of M110, which you noted is a completely different platform. Here's my understanding.

M110 = Knight's Armament SR-25 (legacy semi-automatic sniper rifle w/ suppressor, etc)
M110A1 = H&K G28E as modified for the US Army requirements and designated as the 'M110A1 SDMR' (these replace the legacy M14 EBR-RI platform on a one-for-one basis)
CSASS (Compact Semi-Auto Sniper System) = H&K G28E as modified for the US Army requirements as a designated sniper rifle...(different barrel and buttstock, plus all the kit. My assumption is these will ultimately replace the legacy KAC SR-25/M110 sniper rifles, but as noted below, KAC won a contract in 2018 - so the M110s will be around until at least 2024.)

So, what is the difference b/t the H&K M110A1 (aka SDMR) and the H&K CSASS rifle?

Quote:
Unlike the sniper configuration, the SDMR model will be equipped with a different buttstock and barrel twist than the CSASS model. The marksman version is fitted with a simpler SIG TANGO6 1-624 telescopic sight to make quick adjustments between 0–600 m (0–656 yd), and it fires M80A1 Enhanced Performance Rounds or XM1158 Advanced Armor Piercing Rounds rather than sniper rounds; it will be fielded with a suppressor to make the marksman less identifiable with louder 7.6251mm NATO rounds.
Here's the M110A1 Squad Designated Marksman Rifle (SDMR) w/ SIG 1-6x scope:


...and here's the CSASS sniper version (note adjustable cheek rest and big S&B 3-20x scope).
Barrel has a different twist rate as well, but can't recall at this moment what it is.


https://www.guns.com/news/2020/03/05...an-rifle-award

Quote:
The SDMR is a variant of the HK-produced M110A1 with a slightly different stock and Sig Sauer’s 1-6x24mm Tango6 optic. The Army is moving to adopt between 5,000 and 6,000 SDMRs to replace modified M14 rifles used as designated marksman rifles over the past decade.

The SDMR was evaluated at Fort Bliss by the Army’s PEO Soldier program in 2019
BTW, KAC won a contract in 2018 to keep their legacy M110 in the military for a while longer (till 2024):
https://www.guns.com/news/2018/12/26...-rifles-photos

...and the legacy M110s are apparently getting an optic upgrade as well, via a new contract w/ Leupold:
https://soldiersystems.net/2020/04/0...ys-m110-rifle/

Apologizes for the digression, but my understanding is that the 6200 or so M14 EBR-RIs built b/t 2009-2012? are being replaced on a one-for-one basis with 6,000 of the H&K M110A1 SDMR rifles (this transition is underway or perhaps already completed). I've read the Army intends to purchase about 3643 of the CSASS sniper rifles as well, but timeline is not very clear. My 2cts.

On EDIT: An unusual picture from 2013 in Afghanistan showing both the M14 EBR-RI and the KAC M110:

Quote:
FORWARD OPERATING BASE SPIN BOLDAK, Afghanistan ‚A sniper team with 2nd Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment from Joint Base Lewis McChord, Wash., scans the area outside of a leaders' shura from the rooftop in the village of Baki Tanna, Spin Boldak District, Afghanistan Jan. 30, 2013. The shura brought together the District Chief of Police, the district Afghan Border Police Quick Reaction Force commander, the district Executive Director and the village leader of Baki Tanna to discuss Afghan government successes in the area. (Photo by Staff Sgt. Shane Hamann, 102nd Mobile Public Affairs Detachment.)


FWIW: The predecessor to the formal M14 EBR-RI program at Rock Island Arsenal, was a smaller, more ad hoc SDM rifle designated the SEI M14 "Crazy Horse" rifle, and later as the M21A5. These US Army rifles were used mostly in Iraq circa 2005-2010, but it was small program and only about 200 rifles were converted by SEI in AZ. These were marketed as a cost-effective rebuild and an interim SDM solution. Most went to the 2nd Infantry Division and 101st Airborne. See post 9 on this thread for a brief history of this other M14-based SDM rifle: http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=265946

Last edited by Random Guy; 09-22-2020 at 09:58 AM.
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  #19  
Old 10-18-2020, 09:08 AM
mgrs mgrs is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
No worries......... As I read my posts I realized I wasn't being clear and leading to confusion as to the time frame I was referring to.

Again I'll just say that when I was last in an Infantry unit (2014) no one had or heard of an M14. Again maybe some other units had them.

At that time the only section that had any "Special rifles" (you're throwing around all sorts of names etc and definitions that may or not apply) was the Scout/Sniper Platoon and they had M110's (Stoner SR-25's).
Otherwise we had our M240's.
We were getting ready to deploy for Afghanistan and we had several troops in the line platoons train up with Mk12 SPR's.

OK, thanks, so the latest picture you have is 2014.

BTW.... an M110 is an Stoner SR-25. A HK 28 is just that. Both are unique rifles. Both might be given the same title by the US Army (ie Squad Designated Marksman Rifle) but they aren't the same rifle.
So just I confused you by my year comments, you're confusing me by saying things like "..... H&K SDMR aka M110A1 ......"

Thanks for the photo!
It's hard to argue with Random Guy. He has both his facts, and his nomenclature, straight. The names and definitions he is throwing around do apply, and are correct. Perhaps the exception would be that "CSASS" can be most accurately defined as a program to develop a material solution.

The G28 rifle of the CSASS program has been designated the M110A1 and is being fielded as an SDMR.

There were loads of EBR RIs circa 2010-2013, but all that I saw were OEF TPE and no one got hands on until deploying. 2011 was when units started deploying to OEF with the (first, not current) OCP pattern uniform pictured. I am sure EBR-RIs also made it to CONUS books as the requirement in AFG wound down, but have not been on that side of the house in some time.

More unusual than you not encountering EBRs is your unit having MK12s in 2014. That program came well before the EBR-RI program, and not a lot made their way into Army GPF.

Last edited by mgrs; 10-18-2020 at 09:14 AM.
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  #20  
Old 10-18-2020, 10:43 AM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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RG, I might add that the SEI "Crazy Horse" M14's were not made to a common configuration. Each unit seemed to get something slightly different. Most had 22" medium weight barrels but some had 18" medium weight barrels. Some were equipped with Leupold VX 3i 1.5 - 5X scopes while most were equipped with Leupold Mk 4 3.5 - 10X scopes. Reportedly, most of the VX3i scopes were later replaced by Mk 4 3.5 -10X scopes. I am sure that if one was to look at the "Crazy Horse" rifles in detail, there would be a lot more variations.
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