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  #21  
Old 10-18-2020, 11:08 AM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Rick, that is correct that various SEI M14 permutations were made between 2005-2010 for the US military. I outlined some of the history in Lee Emerson’s book in this link, as noted in post #9, etc. http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=265946

Last edited by Random Guy; 10-18-2020 at 11:15 AM.
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  #22  
Old 10-21-2020, 08:45 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrs View Post
It's hard to argue with Random Guy. He has both his facts, and his nomenclature, straight. The names and definitions he is throwing around do apply, and are correct. Perhaps the exception would be that "CSASS" can be most accurately defined as a program to develop a material solution.

The G28 rifle of the CSASS program has been designated the M110A1 and is being fielded as an SDMR.

There were loads of EBR RIs circa 2010-2013, but all that I saw were OEF TPE and no one got hands on until deploying. 2011 was when units started deploying to OEF with the (first, not current) OCP pattern uniform pictured. I am sure EBR-RIs also made it to CONUS books as the requirement in AFG wound down, but have not been on that side of the house in some time.

More unusual than you not encountering EBRs is your unit having MK12s in 2014. That program came well before the EBR-RI program, and not a lot made their way into Army GPF.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here............

This thread started by the OP asking, "....what do current soldiers and Marines use with their M14 rifles......." as far as magazine pouches.

That led me to comment that the M14 (or whatever you choose to call it) hadn't been used since the mid 2010's and since had been replaced by other rifles (Whatever you choose to call them).

Implying that there is no current magazine pouch for the M14 (or whatever you wish to call it).

Since then, it seems by photos etc that the M14 (or whatever you wish to call it) hasn't been fielded since 2014..............

So there is no current magazine pouch for it...... so to answer the OP's question, and what I have atleast remained focused on, is that instead you'd need to look at what was used when the M14 (or whatever you choose to call it) WAS used.

And the photos/comments seem to answer that question as to the magazine pouches that were used when the M14 (or whatever you choose to call it) was being used.
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 10-21-2020 at 08:51 PM.
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  #23  
Old 10-22-2020, 08:14 AM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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I should have shown an example earlier of contemporary mag pouches that might have been recently used with the M14, so here's my impression. Some soldiers use widely available M4/M16 6-magazine bandoleers that are well suited to carry 6 M14 type magazines. For example here's a MOLLE version from the recent past:

NSN 8465-01-491-7517: MOLLE M4/M16 6-Magazine Bandoleer, DCU (Desert Camouflage) Pattern.





FWIW, on the left is the OTIS cleaning kit issued with the US Army M14 EBR circa 2009-2017/18? (this original military package/label is dated Nov 2017), and to the right is the tan/FDE OTIS Defense cleaning kit that I associate with the USMC M14 DMR & USMC M39 rifles from the late 200Xs/early 201Xs.
https://otisdefense.com/7-62mm-rifle-cleaning-kit/



..and here's the M4/M16 bandoleers holding 3 M14 mags along with my replica of a USMC M14 DMR rifle (but each pocket can hold 2 M14 magazines as well).



Quote:
Since then, it seems by photos etc that the M14 (or whatever you wish to call it) hasn't been fielded since 2014...
Well, as noted previously, my understanding is the M14 EBR-RI was an active weapon system (the Army's standard SDM in 7.62 NATO) from 2009 to around 2017/18, after which
they were to be formally replaced with the new H&K SDMR rifle on a one-for-one basis. (As previously documented, the contract award to H&K for 6000+ SDMR rifles took place in 2017).
FWIW, when the M14 EBR-RI's came back from Afghanistan or elsewhere, they apparently got shipped to Anniston, AL to be refurbished by armorers like the person seen in this picture.
I don't know him personally, but someone who does indicated that as of 2019-20 he was still servicing some M14 EBR rifles, but they are now allocated for Foreign Military Sales (FMS).

(Source: The Last Steel Warrior, Second Edition (2018), by Frank Iannamico, page 247)


...it was from Mr. Woody that I finally got confirmation about the US Army M14 EBR slings: What was originally issued vs what was often used by the soldiers who carried them... They were issued with the generic black M16 nylon sling (seen in plastic bag at top of pic) as the procurement package did have funding for a better sling. However, since the rifle weighs 15 lbs a wider, padded sling is desirable, and when the rifles come back to Anniston after being deployed - he often finds the padded M60 slings in the rifle's case. So, the M60 sling is what I am using with my replica once it's completed (seen here). Fortunately these M60 slings with heavy-duty snap hooks are pretty easy to find on eBay and they are inexpensive as well.



Just an fyi post.

Last edited by Random Guy; 10-22-2020 at 01:02 PM.
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  #24  
Old 10-22-2020, 09:38 PM
mgrs mgrs is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here............
The start was to address this statement specifically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
(you're throwing around all sorts of names etc and definitions that may or not apply)
He was using the correct "names etc and definitions" exactly where they applied which made references to different systems significantly less confusing.

I mentioned the TPE part to explain why you had never seen an M14 based system in service. All that I saw (EBRs) were Theater Provided Equipment (TPE), meaning that they stayed overseas. If you did not deploy, you would not have seen one.

The EBR-RI reference was because they were the largest group and longest-fielded of the post 2001 M14 rebuilds, and have been the subject of much of the debate in this thread regarding when M14 based systems were last in widespread service.

They were almost universally called "EBRs" by end users and not M14s.
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  #25  
Old 10-22-2020, 10:42 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Guy View Post
I should have shown an example earlier of contemporary mag pouches that might have been recently used with the M14, so here's my impression. Some soldiers use widely available M4/M16 6-magazine bandoleers that are well suited to carry 6 M14 type magazines. For example here's a MOLLE version from the recent past:

NSN 8465-01-491-7517: MOLLE M4/M16 6-Magazine Bandoleer, DCU (Desert Camouflage) Pattern.





FWIW, on the left is the OTIS cleaning kit issued with the US Army M14 EBR circa 2009-2017/18? (this original military package/label is dated Nov 2017), and to the right is the tan/FDE OTIS Defense cleaning kit that I associate with the USMC M14 DMR & USMC M39 rifles from the late 200Xs/early 201Xs.
https://otisdefense.com/7-62mm-rifle-cleaning-kit/



..and here's the M4/M16 bandoleers holding 3 M14 mags along with my replica of a USMC M14 DMR rifle (but each pocket can hold 2 M14 magazines as well).





Well, as noted previously, my understanding is the M14 EBR-RI was an active weapon system (the Army's standard SDM in 7.62 NATO) from 2009 to around 2017/18, after which
they were to be formally replaced with the new H&K SDMR rifle on a one-for-one basis. (As previously documented, the contract award to H&K for 6000+ SDMR rifles took place in 2017).
FWIW, when the M14 EBR-RI's came back from Afghanistan or elsewhere, they apparently got shipped to Anniston, AL to be refurbished by armorers like the person seen in this picture.
I don't know him personally, but someone who does indicated that as of 2019-20 he was still servicing some M14 EBR rifles, but they are now allocated for Foreign Military Sales (FMS).

(Source: The Last Steel Warrior, Second Edition (2018), by Frank Iannamico, page 247)


...it was from Mr. Woody that I finally got confirmation about the US Army M14 EBR slings: What was originally issued vs what was often used by the soldiers who carried them... They were issued with the generic black M16 nylon sling (seen in plastic bag at top of pic) as the procurement package did have funding for a better sling. However, since the rifle weighs 15 lbs a wider, padded sling is desirable, and when the rifles come back to Anniston after being deployed - he often finds the padded M60 slings in the rifle's case. So, the M60 sling is what I am using with my replica once it's completed (seen here). Fortunately these M60 slings with heavy-duty snap hooks are pretty easy to find on eBay and they are inexpensive as well.



Just an fyi post.
You clearly have spent alot of time researching this and it is a passion of yours.
I am not an expert on these M14's (or whatever you want to call them) and as I've said I never saw one in my Military Service. Does that mean anything? No, It does not.

But since I waded into this conversation, the question that you/I have been bouncing back/forth is when these M14's (or whatever you want to call them) stopped being fielded. That's the side conversation we've been having.

The reason I asked about dated photos of these rifles being used in the field is they show just that--- when were these rifles actually being used.

Because relying on contracts or other items to date this question isn't accurate. For example the bandoleer you have is for a contract dated 2004, the manual is dated 2000. The cleaning kit is dated 2017 but is marked for the DMR and M240..........
"Your understanding" of a contract doesn't tell me when these rifles were actually still being used or when they were actually pulled from the line units.
(Or as the other poster mentions when the rifles stopped being issued upon coming into country. Even though your photo in post #16 seems to contradict those comments).
Photos do though.........

But regardless, by your comments, it seems there is no current magazine pouch in use and whenever the M14 was being used, they made due with a variety of pouches (as seen in the various photos) and for that matter slings as well.
Fair enough?
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 10-22-2020 at 11:02 PM.
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  #26  
Old 10-23-2020, 06:28 AM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Gentlemen, A few years ago I watched a video in which an employee of Rock Island stated that even though the M110 was being fielded at that time, there were more M14 type rifles in the field than all other Army issued 7.62 rifles combined. Obviously, they were being used in significant numbers but probably weren't used servicewide

As for the magazine pouches, I think all of us tend to believe that there probably wasn't an M14 specific magazine pouch issued when the rifles were issued. I have seen a few different variants of Eagle Industries 7.62 magazine pouches. I seem to recall that most are labeled for the SR-25 or the SCAR-H. They were all khaki which tends to indicate that they were initially acquired by SOCOM units. However, despite the fact that they were designed for those rifles, they fit M14 magazines perfectly.
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  #27  
Old 10-23-2020, 06:38 AM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Here are a couole of examples:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EAGLE-INDUS...8AAOSw~iRZnc9w

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Eagle-I...8AAOSw5QZdaU09
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  #28  
Old 10-23-2020, 09:34 AM
Random Guy Random Guy is offline
 
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Quote:
But regardless, by your comments, it seems there is no current magazine pouch in use and whenever the M14 was being used, they made due with a variety of pouches (as seen in the various photos) and for that matter slings as well. Fair enough?
I think the exterior dimensions of the M14 magazine and SR-25 magazines (aka Mk 11 Mod 0 and M110) are so close that mag pouches were considered interchangeable as far as the military was concerned. (Note: The Mk 11 Mod became a standard SOCOM weapon in 2000, and it replaced the M14 SSR (Sniper Security Rifle) as the 7.62 NATO semi-auto sniper rifle used by the NSW/Navy SEAL teams). See below for NSN description of an Eagle Industries double mag pouch for the "M14 or SR 25" magazines. Slings issued with the various EBR's are documented, except with the US Army EBR-RI, but I went to the source to get confirmation of as to the black M16 sling as the issued item: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_14_...d_Battle_Rifle

Quote:
A few years ago I watched a video in which an employee of Rock Island stated that even though the M110 was being fielded at that time, there were more M14 type rifles in the field than all other Army issued 7.62 rifles combined. Obviously, they were being used in significant numbers but probably weren't used service-wide.
Yes, my research of the origins of the M14 EBR program suggests they were developed based on the issues encountered in the Afghanistan theater. A 2009 US Army report asserted that 50 percent of engagements in Afghanistan occur with the enemy attacking at 300 meters (328 yards) or beyond, while more than 80 percent of soldiers in an infantry company are equipped with weapons that can't touch the enemy beyond that range. To quote from the report: "The enemy tactics are to engage U.S. forces from high ground with medium and heavy weapons, often including mortars, knowing that we are restricted by our equipment limitations and the inability of our overburdened solider to maneuver at elevations exceeding 6,000 feet. Current equipment, training, and doctrine are optimized for engagement under 300 meters on a level terrain." (Earhart, 2009: 24)

So to fix the equipment problem, the Army established a program to use initially 5,000 of M14 EBR-RIs made at RIA circa 2009-2011. The original order for the SAGE chassis came through Navy/Crane, but at a later date the Army issued its own contract for the SAGE chassis, and added another 1200 rifles, for a total of 6200 EBR-RI rifles for the dedicated SDM role.

To fix the training problem, the US Army developed a Squad Designated Marksmanship Course around the M14 EBR, which was a ten-day training program held at Fort Benning, GA. I think that began around (correction) mid-200Xs. Based on a training pic from 2012, apparently Ft. Bragg in NC also developed an M14 EBR/SDM training program. (Perhaps the group picture from post #15 is an SDM 'graduation class' taken at Ft. Benning or Ft. Bragg? - but that is just a guess). I don't know the current status of the SDM training program at Ft Benning (or Ft. Bragg), but presumably they are now using the new H&K M110A1 (aka G28E) rifles since deliveries reportedly started in late 2018. Hopefully I can hear back from a knowledgeable person about when the M14 EBR-RIs were replaced as the official SDM, but I suspect 2018 is the approximate date, given what others have observed and when M110A1s were first delivered as the EBR replacement rifles. (Fort Bliss evaluated the M110A1s in 2019, per the previously cited article).

Quote:
As for the magazine pouches, I think all of us tend to believe that there probably wasn't an M14 specific magazine pouch issued when the rifles were issued. I have seen a few different variants of Eagle Industries 7.62 magazine pouches. I seem to recall that most are labeled for the SR-25 or the SCAR-H. They were all khaki which tends to indicate that they were initially acquired by SOCOM units. However, despite the fact that they were designed for those rifles, they fit M14 magazines perfectly.
Yep, I checked my stash of web gear last night and found one of those FDE Eagle Industries dual mag pouches that holds an M14 mag pretty firmly.

NSN 8465-01-540-3800: https://www.wbparts.com/rfq/8465-01-540-3800.html
SPECIAL FEATURES: COLOR, COYOTE BROWN; DESIGNED TO HOLD 4 M14 OR SR 25 MAGS, 2 EACH PER POCKET; SIDE BY SIDE WITH AN ELATIC STRIP TO PROVIDE A SNUG FIT.

(I think that is an error,/typo as only 1 magazine can be held in each pocket, but anyhow, the NSN description mentions both M14 and SR25. Based on the NSN link I provided, it appears that most of these were ordered in 2011 by either the Navy or USMC, and a smaller order in 2018. It doesn't appear that the US Army was a customer for this particular pouch).







...based on the eBay ads, it seems these newer pouches now refer the SCAR-H instead of the M14, which makes sense.

FWIW, a guy on another forum who is a big fan of the SAGE chassis on M14s made a video a few years ago which appears to have about every image and permutation of the SAGE chassis-based M14 rifles seen on the net...(I guess he likes Ozzy Osborne too). Not my video, just an fyi.
https://youtu.be/Nrzd-7GjZEE

Last edited by Random Guy; 04-09-2021 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Fixed date reference re SDM course
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  #29  
Old 10-23-2020, 10:23 AM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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RG, I have not tried the pouch you showed but the SCAR-H pouches can hold 2 magazines per pocket but they are tight due to the tension supplied by the elastic strap. I suspect that in many cases the elastic might have been removed by troops in the field.

There is also a single SCAR-H pouch that is sort of a speed reload pouch. It mentions Fort Bragg on the label.
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  #30  
Old 10-23-2020, 08:53 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Random:

Are you sure about the dates and focus of the SDM courses to be the result of,
"......To fix the training problem, the US Army developed a Squad Designated Marksmanship Course around the M14 EBR, which was a ten-day training program held at Fort Benning, GA. I think that began around 2009 or 2010. ........" ??

Which as this link shows, from Infantry Magazine July 2008, where AR15/M16's were being used:

http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/ERPR/23...MAN-COURSE.pdf

Sir:
This is the problem with trying to force specific dates and nomenclature into your narrative.
There were multiple approaches to the question of more accurate rifles being fielded, at different times, by different units, not to mention "overlapping" of one rifle with another.
I think it would be a mistake to tie the SDM program to a specific rifle.
But that is just my opinion..........

For example, this link shows maybe??? current?? SDM training from Camp Robinson with 2 undated pictures, one with a M14 and the other an AR. ???
(Though both Soldiers are wearing ACU's.....)

https://ngmtc.wordpress.com/menu/training/sdm/

PS: You also seem to be determined to ignore the "original" M110- the Stoner SR-25 variant- which was in use well before 2018.
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 10-23-2020 at 09:28 PM.
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