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  #1  
Old 04-18-2022, 10:12 AM
sonnyboy sonnyboy is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northeastern P.A.
Posts: 27
Default M73b1 question

id the m73b1 scope ever have locking screws on windage and elevation knobs? I always thought you had to watch readjusting the settings because they only have a small beveled tab between the adjustmant knobs to give a click feel to your adjustments. I have been looking at a m73b1 scope that has a srew in the center of adjustment knobs that after clicking in your windage and elevation, you can tighten the center screw to hold in that position your adjustments????????
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  #2  
Old 05-31-2022, 08:51 AM
cnjcomp cnjcomp is offline
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Savannah,GA
Posts: 25
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The type two M73B1's had a screw in the center of the knobs. Never saw one in person so I don't have any idea if they lock the adjustments.
For what its worth the M73B1 type 1 I have has very positive stops and it has never changed adjustments on me.
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  #3  
Old 06-01-2022, 09:38 PM
jlacy jlacy is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Paris, TN
Posts: 26
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If it is a later M73, it will have screws that allow you to reset zero marks on top. Sorta like we do on modern scopes today.
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  #4  
Old 06-02-2022, 12:10 PM
Mark1 Mark1 is online now
 
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Location: Florida
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Can you post a picture. It would help greatly.


The Weaver 330 has a screw for the windage and elevation adjustments in the center with a locking ring.
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  #5  
Old 07-06-2022, 07:36 PM
ggordon ggordon is offline
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New York State
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The M73B1 scopes that have the graduated disc on top of the adjustment knobs don't lock the knob position. They only allow resetting the zero mark as was mentioned earlier.
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  #6  
Old 07-08-2022, 08:42 AM
cnjcomp cnjcomp is offline
 
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I think the weaver 330 you mention with screw and lock ring is a 330s. I do not think they were used on the A4's
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  #7  
Old 07-13-2022, 10:53 PM
Ben Tolson Ben Tolson is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: NE Washington
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I have always understood that some Weaver 330 "S" scopes were commandeered by the US Government during WWII (While I don't have US Government documented "proof" ...I have owned the "Type 1" mentioned in the information. I would great to have this verified by smarter people (ie "ChuckInDenver")
Side note: I picked up a M73B1 Type 2A today, pics are posted below of the data plate.

Below is information copied from the internet... it may or may not be completely accurate as this stuff has a way of getting updated with better info... YMMV

"Type 1, 2 & 3 as relates to the M73B1 first all should be understood to be 'terms of art' used by collectors just to help us describe things. They have no official basis.

Basically it breaks down like this:
"
Type 1 - Commercial Weaver 330 with the words "Telescope, M73B1
Serial No. xxxx" electopenciled on the side of the tube.

Type 2a - "Telescope, M73B1"
"Pat'd=Pats Pending"
"W.R. Weaver & Co."
"El Paso, Tx"
(all of the above is roll stamped on the data plate)
The words "Serial No." are rolled stamped on the side of the tube.
The actual serial number is electropenciled on the tube.
The W&E knobs are flat-topped with out the tiny center zeroing screw.

Type 2b - Same as Type 2a except:
The W&E knobs have a tiny screw which allows the sniper to set the scope marks to "zero" once he has targeted his rifle.

Type 3 - The references to Weaver no longer appear. The Data plates are roll stamped:
"Telescope, M73B1"
"Stock No. 7579931"
"Serial No." (The actual s/n XXXXX is applied with an electropencil.)
"7635029" (GI stock number for the data plate.)

As far as the quantities and serial numbers go the "Type 2" model, a & b seem to predominate.

We know that Weaver produced something on the order of 36000 scopes during WW2.

According to Clark Campbell ("The '03 Springfield Era", 2003) the earliest A4's were equipped with commercial scopes either the "330C" with cross wire reticles or the "330 Scope - M.8" with tapered post. Throughout A4 production the delivery of telescopic sights was major problem. In order to allow Remington to get the first few thousand rifles out the door Weaver scrounged all their unsold inventory. Some of these scopes may have been returned to Weaver in El Paso where they were converted to the "Type 1" configuration.

Information is incomplete on M73B1 Serial Numbers but Type 1's are seen in the 6XXX to 10XXX range; Type 2a's from around 11XXX to 21XXX and Type 2b's from 22XXX to 29XXX and Type 3's from 30XXX to 35XXX. These are approximations and a further complication comes about since scopes were occasionally rebuilt and the parts mixed by the military or civilians. It appears that Weaver included the quantities of the commercial scopes furnished in the overall serial number range even thought the scopes were not serial numbered. (For example to the best of my knowledge serial numbers are never seen on examples of the '330 Scope - M.8)

To sum up The M73B1 was the primary scope used on the A4 both during and after WW2. The M84 was approved as an alternate in 1956 and authorization was granted to use up any remaining stocks of m73, M81 or m82 scopes at about the same time. You could try to line up a scope type with rifle serial number but personally I think that would just be splitting hairs.

A couple of years ago there was a Type 3 (sn 35335) on eBay still sealed in the factory carton which was dated March 7, 1945. This of course was well after A4 production was concluded. It's quite possible some or even all the Type 3 scopes were spare parts and not used in original production."

December 42 ordnance finalized the specifications for the M1903A4. In that document they cited "the urgent need" for a sniper's rifle and a desire to use a "hunting style" scope like the Weaver 330C with click adjustments for windage and elevation. At the close of the document ordnance specifically approved purchase of the 330C and Lyman Alaskan. (The designations M73B1 and M73, respectively, would come later - the precise date is a bit unclear.)

Deliveries of the Lyman Alaskan were supposed to start in Sept 1943 eventually phasing out the Weaver scope. There are certain aspects of the m1903A4 design that suggest the A4 was really designed around the Alaskan. One such point is the bevel at the rear of the scope base.It was needed for finger clearance on the eyepiece. However, the M73B1 sits far enough back so that it is not needed.

Another point is the safety. With a properly mounted Alaskan the safety clears the eyepiece and can be fully engaged. With the Weaver the safety lever interferes with the scope tube and cannot be fully engaged.

Finally, both the Alaskan and the Weaver were reasonably long eye relief scopes. Unfortunately for the Weaver, the leading edge of the data plate bumps into the back edge of the rear mounting ring. So when used with the Redfield Jr. it is not possible to take full advantage of the Weavers' eye relief.

All this aside for the moment the need was urgent and Weaver could deliver the scopes (Weaver controlled all aspects of production including lens grinding). Just over 1400 rifles (complete with scopes) were shipped in March of 43. (These were most likely carried the commercial Weaver scopes). Rifle shipments (basically controlled by scope deliveries) dropped dramatically in April and May 43 before resuming in June. This was the period when Weaver was tooling up to get the "real" M73B1's in the pipeline. Meanwhile, ordnance was hoping and praying that Lyman would deliver. But Lyman was busy with other war work as was its critical subcontractor Bausch and Lomb. Bausch and Lomb produced the matched lens sets for the Alaskan and they had a lot of high priority work such as producing binoculars and other optical gear. Alaskan deliveries were supposed to commence in September 43 and Weaver was supposed to ship its last scope in November 43. The Alaskan deliveries never happened in time for A4 production. Ordnance had to reverse itself and continue the Weaver contract on into 1945. It also cancelled a planned third order of M1903A4 rifles issued in July of 43.

From a documentary point of view you will see in the A4 Tech manual TM 9-270 signed off in July 43 and Published in Sept 43 covers the Weaver 330C in detail (no usage of the nomenclature "M73B1" although by that time M73B1's were undoubtedly shipping) and the Lyman Alaskan is mentioned in passing in the text.
In Oct 43 TM- 9-2200 which is kind of a catalog of equipment has photos of the A4 with both the Weaver and Lyman scopes affixed.

By Jan 1944 TM 9-1270 which covers all the bolt action 03 models refers only to the Weaver 330C and M73B1 there no longer is any mention of the Alaskan in connection with the A4.

The best source of information on A4 production is an article By William Hansen entitled "Snipers, Snarls and Snafus - Stories Behind the M1903A4 Snipers Rifle", Journal of the Remington Society of America Fall 2004. Back issues may be available for the society thru their website.

So while there was some documentary evidence that the Alaskan might have been used on the A4 it does not appear to be the case. The number of real M73 scopes that were produced appears to be quite small (maybe a couple of hundred) and many of those were modified and remarked as M81's for use on M1 snipers. The overall number of M73's, M81's and M82's manufactured By Lyman and Wollensak appears to be fairly small compared to the Weaver scopes - maybe something on the order of 16,000 scopes according to one article.

It is understood that Frankford arsenal manufactured a few hundred M73B1's (Type 3) .

Another rarity is the M73B2 manufactured in France in 1945 and used experimentally.


Update: Added more information. Also just noticed the serial number on my own scope is 23,070.... so the break point between type 2a & 2b is "not fixed"... at 23,xxx

Last edited by Ben Tolson; 07-19-2022 at 07:00 AM.
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2022, 12:43 PM
Ben Tolson Ben Tolson is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: NE Washington
Posts: 65
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This is the type 2a....



Last edited by Ben Tolson; 07-14-2022 at 08:38 PM.
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2022, 01:07 PM
42Springfield 42Springfield is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: MO
Posts: 276
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That is a really nice clean example.
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  #10  
Old 07-17-2022, 06:53 AM
The Apprentice The Apprentice is online now
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Umatilla,Or
Posts: 835
Default Thank you for posting this information

Thank you for this break down Ben it is very useful, For such a hard scope to find and not worry about it breaking if you were to use your a4 it took me over a year to find mine however I got lucky and found it in your home state maybe I am seeing a pattern with m73b1 up in the north west
😁

https://www.flickr.com/photos/193435...posted-public/

Mine is like yours with the top screws for zeroing that would have been nice


We’re you able to learn anything about the Lyman Alaskan’s were they used in the Korean War?

It would be nice to fill in that information
Jeff




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Tolson View Post
I have always understood that some Weaver 330 "S" scopes were commandeered by the US Government during WWII (While I don't have absolute proof...I have seen the "Type 1" mentioned in the information. I would love to have this verified by smarter people (ie "ChuckInDenver") .)
I picked up a M73B1 Type 2A today and will post pics tomorrow of the data plate.

Below is information copied from the inter-webs... it may or may not be totally accurate as this stuff has a way of getting updated with better info... YMMV

"Type 1, 2 & 3 as relates to the M73B1 first all should be understood to be 'terms of art' used by collectors just to help us describe things. They have no official basis.

Basically it breaks down like this:

Type 1 - Commercial Weaver 330 with the words "Telescope, M73B1
Serial No. xxxx" electopenciled on the side of the tube.

Type 2a - "Telescope, M73B1"
"Pat'd=Pats Pending"
"W.R. Weaver & Co."
"El Paso, Tx"
(all of the above is roll stamped on the data plate)
The words "Serial No." are rolled stamped on the side of the tube.
The actual serial number is electropenciled on the tube.
The W&E knobs are flat-topped with out the tiny center zeroing screw.

Type 2b - Same as Type 2a except:
The W&E knobs have a tiny screw which allows the sniper to set the scope marks to "zero" once he has targeted his rifle.

Type 3 - The references to Weaver no longer appear. The Data plates are roll stamped:
"Telescope, M73B1"
"Stock No. 7579931"
"Serial No." (The actual s/n XXXXX is applied with an electropencil.)
"7635029" (GI stock number for the data plate.)

As far as the quantities and serial numbers go the "Type 2" model, a & b seem to predominate.
We know that Weaver produced something on the order of 36000 scopes during WW2.

According to Clark Campbell ("The '03 Springfield Era", 2003) the earliest A4's were equipped with commercial scopes either the "330C" with cross wire reticles or the "330 Scope - M.8" with tapered post. Throughout A4 production the delivery of telescopic sights was major problem. In order to allow Remington to get the first few thousand rifles out the door Weaver scrounged all their unsold inventory. Some of these scopes may have been returned to Weaver in El Paso where they were converted to the "Type 1" configuration.

Information is incomplete on M73B1 Serial Numbers but Type 1's are seen in the 6XXX to 10XXX range; Type 2a's from around 11XXX to 21XXX and Type 2b's from 22XXX to 29XXX and Type 3's from 30XXX to 35XXX. These are approximations and a further complication comes about since scopes were occasionally rebuilt and the parts mixed by the military or civilians. It appears that Weaver included the quantities of the commercial scopes furnished in the overall serial number range even thought the scopes were not serial numbered. (For example to the best of my knowledge serial numbers are never seen on examples of the '330 Scope - M.8)

To sum up The M73B1 was the primary scope used on the A4 both during and after WW2. The M84 was approved as an alternate in 1956 and authorization was granted to use up any remaining stocks of m73, M81 or m82 scopes at about the same time. You could try to line up a scope type with rifle serial number but personally I think that would just be splitting hairs.

A couple of years ago there was a Type 3 (sn 35335) on eBay still sealed in the factory carton which was dated March 7, 1945. This of course was well after A4 production was concluded. It's quite possible some or even all the Type 3 scopes were spare parts and not used in original production."
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