Go Back   CMP Forums > CMP Competitions > CMP Rules
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 01-18-2019, 02:43 PM
Mountain Mountain is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyn1 View Post
Perhaps, but I had already seen that which prompted my comment regarding I hope they don't dig in because the rules have been printed and/or published.

So the MM rules have been significantly changed how many times?

2013 published
2014 changed weights etc. only one year after the 2013 publishing
2016 (?) changed weights etc. again and allowed optics
2019 disallowed optics and changed weights again

That catch everything?
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 01-18-2019, 03:25 PM
Talyn1 Talyn1 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Montana
Posts: 188
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
Perhaps, but I had already seen that which prompted my comment regarding I hope they don't dig in because the rules have been printed and/or published.

So the MM rules have been significantly changed how many times?

2013 published
2014 changed weights etc. only one year after the 2013 publishing
2016 (?) changed weights etc. again and allowed optics
2019 disallowed optics and changed weights again

That catch everything?
CMP could simply issue an errata sheet for hard copy rule books, and/or send out email/press release to make a correction.

CMP had it right with the 2014 rules IMO. The "inclusivity" verbiage in the new press release is wishy-washy.

I contacted CMP but haven't received a reply.

I haven't looked up the 2015 and 2017 rules, but don't expect any changes compared to the year prior versions.
__________________
NRA Life Member

Last edited by Talyn1; 01-18-2019 at 03:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 01-18-2019, 03:57 PM
jsudduth jsudduth is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 371
Default

I’ve been looking back at the 2013 games rulebook again. I am a bit confused as it appears that the weight for a modern mil AR is called out in two places and the two sections have different weights.

4.2.2 Modern Military Rifle
Semi-automatic military-type rifles of U. S. or foreign manufacture that fulfill
these requirements may be fired if a Modern Military Rifle event or category is
included in the match program:
• Must be semi-automatic military or military-type rifles.
• The weight and exterior configuration of these rifles must be the
same as that of the original military rifle.
• Modern sporting rifles manufactured by U. S. manufacturers may be
used in this category providing the rifle does not exceed 8.0 pounds
in weight.

• Trigger pulls may not be less than 3.5 pounds.

Same rulebook, different section.

4.3.2 Category A, USA Modern Sporting Rifles
Category A Modern Sporting Rifles must comply with these additional
requirements:
• Rifles based on the M-16 or AR design and manufactured by a USA
manufacturer must be used;
• Weight may not exceed 7.5 pounds;
• No special accurizing is permitted except that fixed sling swivels
may be attached to the forward end of the handguard; and
• The rifle must be chambered for the 5.56x45mm or .223 Remington
cartridge.

I’m not sure which is correct or which was enforced back then.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 01-18-2019, 04:55 PM
Talyn1 Talyn1 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Montana
Posts: 188
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsudduth View Post
I’ve been looking back at the 2013 games rulebook again. I am a bit confused as it appears that the weight for a modern mil AR is called out in two places and the two sections have different weights.

4.2.2 Modern Military Rifle
Semi-automatic military-type rifles of U. S. or foreign manufacture that fulfill
these requirements may be fired if a Modern Military Rifle event or category is
included in the match program:
• Must be semi-automatic military or military-type rifles.
• The weight and exterior configuration of these rifles must be the
same as that of the original military rifle.
• Modern sporting rifles manufactured by U. S. manufacturers may be
used in this category providing the rifle does not exceed 8.0 pounds
in weight.

• Trigger pulls may not be less than 3.5 pounds.

Same rulebook, different section.

4.3.2 Category A, USA Modern Sporting Rifles
Category A Modern Sporting Rifles must comply with these additional
requirements:
• Rifles based on the M-16 or AR design and manufactured by a USA
manufacturer must be used;
Weight may not exceed 7.5 pounds;
• No special accurizing is permitted except that fixed sling swivels
may be attached to the forward end of the handguard; and
• The rifle must be chambered for the 5.56x45mm or .223 Remington
cartridge.

I’m not sure which is correct or which was enforced back then.
IMO, CMP is mixing apples and oranges in order to promote inclusivity and participation, while blending in the old 2013 MSR specs into the MMR specs, but missing both targets.

The NSSF states,..."The modern sporting rifle, based on the AR-15 platform, is widely misunderstood. Why? Confusion exists because...these rifles may cosmetically look like military rifles," The term MSR is a counter to the anti-2nd Amendment crowd application of the term "assault-rifle" that in fact only applied to full-auto military rifles.

In the 2013 4.2.2 category clearly states in two parts....

• Must be semi-automatic military or military-type rifles.
• The weight and exterior configuration of these rifles must be the
same as that of the original military rifle.

These two elements point clearly to commercial equivalent ARs that are in a "classic fixed sight" military configuration and weight that correspond with their mil-spec cousins. This covers the commercial equivalents of M4 carbine and M16/M16A1/M16A2 rifle variations.

Then it specifically mentions "separate" MSRs which are derivatives of the M16A4 platform for more hunting/recreational purposes.

• Rifles based on the M-16 or AR design and manufactured by a USA
manufacturer must be used;
Weight may not exceed 7.5 pounds;

We know the M16A4 design introduced the "flat-top" upper that opened the door for optics use, with secondary BUIS sights w/o an optic. Plus the MSR category opened up the accessory world to a plethora of handguards, grips, rails, etc. that made the AR MSR world take-off.

CMP is trying to capture that MSR user world but with limits based on a specified weight and the mandatory use of a BUIS.

In the mean time it's throwing out the traditional classic fixed-sight A2 to the wolves in the unlimited world simply due to an arbitrary weight that was/is intended to limit the bells & whistles on a MSR-oriented AR.

IMO, since the M16A4 variant was/is still in use by the US military it should still be considered a original military rifle, so that the commercial semi-auto equivalent can be used as long as it only has a fixed-sight carry handle on it. Other wise it goes into the unlimited world if a user wants to mount an optic because it can.

Right now the Unlimited MMR category is open-ended enough that an AR service rifle (according to the 4.1 CMP high power rifle rules/4.1.1 M-16/Ar15-type Service Rifle rules) can be used, and well as tricked out MSRs since there is an unlimited weight.

IMO, Class A should be nearly the same as the 2014 MMR rules with some 2019 specs for flavor. Essentially,

Must be semi-automatic military or military-type rifles.

• The weight and configuration of these rifles must be the same or similar as that of the original military rifle
• Rifles must be equipped with issue-type metallic front and rear sights; rear sights with adjustments finer than one minute of angle are permitted.
• Rifles may be fitted with a ribbed or railed handguard.
• Rifles should not not exceed 8.0 pounds in weight. (this would cover the heavier fixed sight carry handle A4s)
• Trigger pulls may not be less than 4.5 pounds.
• Buttstocks may vary vary in length and either be fixed or adjustable. Adjustable length stocks are permitted, but butt stocks that allow for adjustments such as cheek-piece height or butt-plate location may not be used,
• ..the 2019 magazine language.
• The rifle must be chambered in 5.56x45 or .223 Remington.


IMO I would put anything with a free-floated barrel into the unlimited category considering that's a clear accuracy feature vs. dumping the old A2 into the unlimited category simply because it's 4 oz heavier in weight.

My .02
__________________
NRA Life Member

Last edited by Talyn1; 01-18-2019 at 06:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 01-18-2019, 09:24 PM
Talyn1 Talyn1 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Montana
Posts: 188
Default

Fortunately, since 2016 the NRA Highpower Rule book hasn't had a weight threshold for the U.S. Service Rifle 5.56 mm M-16 series as of the last revision in May 2018.

Hopefully, they won't follow the CMP lead.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:00 PM
GarandThumb21 GarandThumb21 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 16
Default

CMP started another thread explaining that the 2019 Modern Military rules were designed, among other things, to squeeze out the M16A2 style rifles, hence the 7.5 lb. weight limit. So much for the theory that the published weight limit may have been a typo.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:29 PM
Talyn1 Talyn1 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Montana
Posts: 188
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarandThumb21 View Post
CMP started another thread explaining that the 2019 Modern Military rules were designed, among other things, to squeeze out the M16A2 style rifles, hence the 7.5 lb. weight limit. So much for the theory that the published weight limit may have been a typo.
Yea I linked to it at the top of this page.

Your reply on that other thread is a good one.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 01-19-2019, 12:20 AM
Herzo Herzo is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 183
Default

I also consider the floating barrel to be not in keeping with the spirit of the competition. This is a modification to the AR platform giving it an accuracy advantage over other firearms in the MM class that is not a part of the issued M16 and variants. Being able to control the sling tension is part of shooting this rifle well. That said, in changing over to a GI style FSB, I will take advantage of the floating barrel on my M4gery.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 01-21-2019, 05:49 PM
mac1911 mac1911 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,008
Default

I say ok to the irons to optics class, after all it was kind of silly you can use a 4x optic against someone with iron sights but a hooded rear aperture with a +.50 corrective insert so I can see my front sight was a DQ?


Now the A2 upper I sought out with the "government profile" barrel a few years back a nogo and they now want pencil barrels. Does it need to be a 1/12 twist and should we be restricted to M193 ammo ?
Strange rules...


Well I think I will just hack of my muzzle device and threads that should get to make weight?


Or maybe a super fat/heavy 14" or less barrel free float and a welded on super light weight flash hider to make it 16"


ugh
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 01-21-2019, 06:51 PM
Talyn1 Talyn1 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Montana
Posts: 188
Default

I got my Windham 20" govt-profile FSB barrel assembly (includes A2 handguards, gas tube, delta ring, spring, etc.) today. All that weighs 3.3 lbs., with everything but the handguard & barrel within plastic bag packaging, on my digital scale.

My complete A2 rear-end assembly (RRA NM fixed-handle A2 upper w/standard BCG, lower with LaRue MBT-2S (4.5 lb.) trigger, & A2 buttstock w/A2 buffer & spring) with KNS no-rotation hammer & trigger pins installed and a LW Battle Arms ambidextrous safety comes to 4.1 lbs.

Unassembled but adding the two comes in at 7.4 lbs., with a ~1.6 oz. leeway to the good. No helium involved.

I'll weigh the whole rifle once assembled when I get my smith to complete the install in a few days. Hopefully he won't use any "really heavy" anti-seize lube on the barrel nut/receiver & FH threads.

Right now it appears it will meet the Class A weight limit, but if I used an A4 upper with detachable carry-handle it would have been over due to the greater weight of the A4 assembly due to the steel attachment bolts and knobs.
__________________
NRA Life Member

Last edited by Talyn1; 01-21-2019 at 11:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:20 PM.