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Old 04-17-2014, 01:02 PM
RedSpecial RedSpecial is online now
 
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Default WWII marksman ship levels?

Anyone know what the different qualifications for marksman, expert, sharp shooter etc were during WWII?

For rifle? Pistol? Sub machine gun?

Ive looked all over but I can't seem to find anything.

Thanks.
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Old 04-17-2014, 06:45 PM
RuggedTerrain40 RuggedTerrain40 is offline
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I'd be interested in knowing that as well. Like, what kinds of targets did they use in Army and Marine Corps basic training for rifle training, scores for marksman, sharpshooter and expert. What were the distances and positions shot at? My Dad shot sharpshooter with an M-14 in 1968 at Fort Dix, NJ. He has his sharpshooter pin.

WW2 and Korean war era marksmanship levels would be built around the M1 Garand and the .30 caliber bullet.

Eric
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Old 04-17-2014, 06:49 PM
usriflecaliber.30m1 usriflecaliber.30m1 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSpecial View Post
Anyone know what the different qualifications for marksman, expert, sharp shooter etc were during WWII?

For rifle? Pistol? Sub machine gun?

Ive looked all over but I can't seem to find anything.

Thanks.
Or grenade.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:24 PM
MTC29 MTC29 is offline
 
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Standards for marksmanship in the USMC changed little between the wars and during WWII a Boot shot for record on the KD range at three distances:

500 yards:
Ten rounds, slow fire, prone position

300 yards:
Ten rounds, rapid fire, prone
Five rounds, slow fire, kneeling
Five rounds, slow fire, sitting

Everyone hated the sitting position!

200 yards:
Ten rounds, rapid fire, sitting
Ten rounds, slow fire, off hand

With five points awarded for each round a score of 250 points would be what was known as "The perfect possible", which was virtually impossible to reach due to the use of standard service rifles and old surplus ammunition leftover from WWI. Shoot 190 and you were a Marksman. Shoot 215 and you were a Sharpshooter. Expert meant shooting 225 or better. In those days the Corps paid extra for crack shots: A Sharpshooter received and additional $2 per month with an Expert receiving five extra bucks. Back in the early days of the war when a private was paid $21 per month this was HUGE money and Boots would bust their asses to qualify as at least a Sharpshooter. Even when pay was advanced to $51 per month that amount extra money (10% extra pay for Expert) was hardly small change.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:29 PM
Roadkingtrax Roadkingtrax is offline
 
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MTC, did they use the common plain V-Ring targets?

Wonder what the scoring ring sizes were.

Last edited by Roadkingtrax; 04-17-2014 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:55 PM
7 ring 7 ring is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkingtrax View Post
MTC, Wonder what the scoring ring sizes were.
Great question.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:57 PM
RedSpecial RedSpecial is online now
 
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MTC29, do you know what the qualifications were for other firearms like the pistol, carbine, auto rifle, machine gun were?

Also not sure if I understand the scoring correctly, how were the five points per round come up with, was each shot in the black considered a 'hit' and then worth five points? Or was it something like a hit in the 10/X was five points, a 9 four points etc?

I've searched all over google but can't seem to find anything about the subject.
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Old 04-17-2014, 09:26 PM
MTC29 MTC29 is offline
 
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I do not know the size of the black area of the target and the old Marine Gunner who I interviewed for my notes on this has long since moved onto to his reward. Five points were awarded for a round in the ten ring (there was an X-ring for breaking ties in matches) and scoring progressed out to the 6 ring, which earned a single point. During practice when you were sighting your rifle; if your round struck in the the black a stick with a white disk, which was called The Cartwheel, would be flashed over the target indicating a bulls eye while hits outside the black would be indicated using a black disc and placed in the location of the hit. This gave you very fast sighting feedback and allowed you to quickly zero your rifle for the range conditions. A hit in the 5 ring or beyond was considered a miss and the crew working down in the butts had a red flag nick named Maggies Drawers which they took great pleasure in waving.
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Old 04-17-2014, 09:47 PM
RuggedTerrain40 RuggedTerrain40 is offline
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Very interesting. There has to be some old Marine Corps or Army rifle manual from the WWII to mid-late fifties era that has the specific standards laid out and the specific targets used.

If someone wanted to go beyond the CMP Games range of 200 yards and set up an Across The Course of fire out to 500 using as issued M1 Garands or as issued M1As, something like you describe would be the realistic standards to go for, without driving yourself crazy. As these are big bore .30 caliber rifles and not match rifles.

As far as the Marines paying their good marksman extra cash because they had achieved a specific skill they valued, I definitely believe they'd do that. I know my Dad in the National Guard of the late sixties during basic and AIT, he had to do monkey bars within a certain time each time before he could go into the mess hall. Also, I believe he told me a few times they made him do monkey bars within a certain time period before they'd physically give him his paycheck.

Anybody know the Army or Marine Corps manual that contains the specific standards of rifle marksmanship for the M1 Garand from WW2 thru 1957? And the M-14 marksmanship standards from 1957 thru the late sixties/early seventies?

Like, Army or Marine Corps FM-1234 or whatever?

Eric


Quote:
Originally Posted by MTC29 View Post
Standards for marksmanship in the USMC changed little between the wars and during WWII a Boot shot for record on the KD range at three distances:

500 yards:
Ten rounds, slow fire, prone position

300 yards:
Ten rounds, rapid fire, prone
Five rounds, slow fire, kneeling
Five rounds, slow fire, sitting

Everyone hated the sitting position!

200 yards:
Ten rounds, rapid fire, sitting
Ten rounds, slow fire, off hand

With five points awarded for each round a score of 250 points would be what was known as "The perfect possible", which was virtually impossible to reach due to the use of standard service rifles and old surplus ammunition leftover from WWI. Shoot 190 and you were a Marksman. Shoot 215 and you were a Sharpshooter. Expert meant shooting 225 or better. In those days the Corps paid extra for crack shots: A Sharpshooter received and additional $2 per month with an Expert receiving five extra bucks. Back in the early days of the war when a private was paid $21 per month this was HUGE money and Boots would bust their asses to qualify as at least a Sharpshooter. Even when pay was advanced to $51 per month that amount extra money (10% extra pay for Expert) was hardly small change.
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Old 04-17-2014, 09:55 PM
PattonWasRight PattonWasRight is offline
 
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Thanks MTC!
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